Details to come, from all involved in the discussion, as we develop this "CE" model for SEOWv7.
Cheers,
4S
Developing a Combat Effectiveness Model for SEOW
Moderator: SEOW Developers
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IV/JG7_4Shades
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Developing a Combat Effectiveness Model for SEOW
IV/JG7_4Shades
SEOW Developer
SEOW Developer
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Kopfdorfer
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ASL as a derivation for some considerations...
Greetings,
As per discussions via Teamspeak , I have offered to "interpret" from the model of ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) , arguably the most thoroughly designed WW2 Tactical Boardgame, to derive useful mechanisms for consideration for use in SEOW.
A few parameters are necessary to make this consideration most effective.
What is Squad Leader?
Squad leader was designed as a WW2 Tactical Level boardgame.
Each playing is referred to as a "Scenario".
The mapboards are divided into hexagons , each hexagon representing 40 metres of terrain.
Each Scenario is represented by a "Scenario Card" detailing the historical background for the engagement , the precise units involved (both at start and - possible - reinforcements) for both sides and their combat condition (more on this later), the map/maps required and their orientation , the scenario length in game turns (representing approximately 2 minutes of combat) , the Victory conditions for both sides , and the historical outcome.
Perhaps most important and unique element of game design which allows the vast breadth of combat conditions and events to be simulated is a feature of each scenario card called "Scenario Special Rules" or to the veteran ASL player , SSR. This feature allows any scenario designer to add a rule of their own design , or to preclude or exclude any rule in the base ruleset , offering a clever designer to impart a unique flavour to every scenario he/she designs.
As it is now , any ground combat on a scale from platoon level to battalion level can be reasonably represented.
Units
In ASL any kind of WW2 ground unit can be simulated. Most are included in the Ruleset , but any variations may be included in the SSR of any given scenario.
The base units are infantry counters , squad leader counters , and support weapon counters.
Infantry Counters
Infantry Counters are of three basic Types : squads , crews , and squad leaders.
Squad Counters represent an infantry squad with its own inherent characteristics of firepower (quantitative and qualitative) , range , morale degree and state of , Unit Class (Elite , 1st Line , Reserve , Conscript etc), possible smoke grenades and inherent LATW (Inf AntiTank Weapons). Infantry Movement rate is not represented explicitly on the counter , but rather as a universal rate effected by Unit Class , Morale State , and Exhaustion. Various movement rates may be selected during the game (normal , double time , assault movement , advance) all of which have potential repercussions in terms of Exhaustion in following turns , ability to Dig In , Effects on Close Combat etc.
Each unit in ASL has an inherent Unit Size Number which effects the enemy's ability to target it with heavy weapons , and effects its ability to hide effectively.
The front of the counter represents the unit in good order (capable of fighting) , the counters reverse side represents the unit when morale has been broken (capable of routing - running away).
In addition , the rules include a list of "Nationality Traits" which instill different Nationalities (and special units such as the Waffen SS and the USMC) with subtle and unique characteristics.
Squad counters represent units of various strengths in manpower, changes of which are represented by the effectivenes of other characteristics. Also , combat effects may result in a unit being attrited to Half-squad strentgh , with reduced characteristics - each squad counter has its own associated half-squad counter.
Crew Counters are used to represent the specially trained units operating AFVs (Armoured Fighting Vehicles) , Artillery Pieces , and in some cases Support Weapons (SW). Infantry Squads can also operate SW , though sometimes at a disadvantage to represent untrained usage.
Crew counters also have a Good Order side and a Broken side (ASL vets often refer to broken units as "brokies" - just thought that would amuse a few of you).
AFVs are considered to have an inherent morale (determined by nation and date , or in some cases by SSR) until they exit or bail out of their vehicle either voluntarily or due to combat results.
The last Infantry Counter Type is the simplest and the most vital to the uniqueness of ASL , the Squad Leader (SL) counter. A SL represents a single low level commander who enables or (in the case of very poor ones - which ARE represented!) disables the units he is with/near on the cardboard battlefield.
SL have two numbers on their Good Order Side. The first number represents the SLs inherent morale - which is usaully higher than the troops he commands. The second number is his Leadership Modifier - this is the Quantitavive amount of his combat effectiveness , ie how much he can affect the units with/near him to rally , survive under fire , and to fire effectively. SLs have a Good Order Side and a Broken side just like all other infantry units.
The key to the effectiveness of units in battle is the quality and effective use of the SL . The SL has several fundamental assets :
1) They can rally broken friendly units
2) They can increase the ability of units with/near them to maintain effectiveness under fire ( they may not break or pin as easily)
3) They can increase the effectiveness of fire of units they are with/near
4) They can increase the movement rate of units they are with
5) They can increase the portage capacity of the units they are with.
6) They can decrease the likelihood of weapons suffering random breakdowns , and increase the possibility of repair of said SW
7) They can increase the likelihood of and results of Close Combat , and infantry units willingness to engage AFVs in Close Combat.
SL are the backbone of the Game System. Period.
Support Weapons (SW)
SW are represented in ASL with their own counters. SW include Machine Guns (MG) , Light Mortars (40-60mm) , Flamethrowers (FT) , Demo Charges (DC) , Radios and Field Phones , Anti-Tank Rifles (ATRs) , Bazookas and Panzerschrecks.
Note* Panzerfausts, Anti-Tank Magnetic Mines, Molotov Cocktails are considered abstractly as a possibility inherent in a squad's armament depending on nationality, theatre and date.
SW have a Good Order side and a Malfunctioned side , and every use includes the possibility of a breakdown (which is also intended to include temporary disfunctionality caused by ammo depletion , clearing dud rounds , changeing hot MG barrels etc , etc).
Such malfunctions have a subsequent repair possibility.
Each SW has a Portage cost - so commanders must carefully consider which units will carry which SWs.
Each SW (Exc Radios and Field Phones , obviously) has a Firepower, a range , and a Rate of Fire possibility.
Radios and Field Phones are used to direct Offboard Artillery.
That's all the juice I have for now. My next post will be about Ordnance and AFV counters.
For what it's worth , I think the most salient and dynamic addition that ASL offers is the concept of Leadership. Obviously I don't know how SEOW reflects tactical leadership now , but I suspect that this is one area where SEOW may borrow some mechanisms from ASL.
Sincerely,
Kopfdorfer
As per discussions via Teamspeak , I have offered to "interpret" from the model of ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) , arguably the most thoroughly designed WW2 Tactical Boardgame, to derive useful mechanisms for consideration for use in SEOW.
A few parameters are necessary to make this consideration most effective.
What is Squad Leader?
Squad leader was designed as a WW2 Tactical Level boardgame.
Each playing is referred to as a "Scenario".
The mapboards are divided into hexagons , each hexagon representing 40 metres of terrain.
Each Scenario is represented by a "Scenario Card" detailing the historical background for the engagement , the precise units involved (both at start and - possible - reinforcements) for both sides and their combat condition (more on this later), the map/maps required and their orientation , the scenario length in game turns (representing approximately 2 minutes of combat) , the Victory conditions for both sides , and the historical outcome.
Perhaps most important and unique element of game design which allows the vast breadth of combat conditions and events to be simulated is a feature of each scenario card called "Scenario Special Rules" or to the veteran ASL player , SSR. This feature allows any scenario designer to add a rule of their own design , or to preclude or exclude any rule in the base ruleset , offering a clever designer to impart a unique flavour to every scenario he/she designs.
As it is now , any ground combat on a scale from platoon level to battalion level can be reasonably represented.
Units
In ASL any kind of WW2 ground unit can be simulated. Most are included in the Ruleset , but any variations may be included in the SSR of any given scenario.
The base units are infantry counters , squad leader counters , and support weapon counters.
Infantry Counters
Infantry Counters are of three basic Types : squads , crews , and squad leaders.
Squad Counters represent an infantry squad with its own inherent characteristics of firepower (quantitative and qualitative) , range , morale degree and state of , Unit Class (Elite , 1st Line , Reserve , Conscript etc), possible smoke grenades and inherent LATW (Inf AntiTank Weapons). Infantry Movement rate is not represented explicitly on the counter , but rather as a universal rate effected by Unit Class , Morale State , and Exhaustion. Various movement rates may be selected during the game (normal , double time , assault movement , advance) all of which have potential repercussions in terms of Exhaustion in following turns , ability to Dig In , Effects on Close Combat etc.
Each unit in ASL has an inherent Unit Size Number which effects the enemy's ability to target it with heavy weapons , and effects its ability to hide effectively.
The front of the counter represents the unit in good order (capable of fighting) , the counters reverse side represents the unit when morale has been broken (capable of routing - running away).
In addition , the rules include a list of "Nationality Traits" which instill different Nationalities (and special units such as the Waffen SS and the USMC) with subtle and unique characteristics.
Squad counters represent units of various strengths in manpower, changes of which are represented by the effectivenes of other characteristics. Also , combat effects may result in a unit being attrited to Half-squad strentgh , with reduced characteristics - each squad counter has its own associated half-squad counter.
Crew Counters are used to represent the specially trained units operating AFVs (Armoured Fighting Vehicles) , Artillery Pieces , and in some cases Support Weapons (SW). Infantry Squads can also operate SW , though sometimes at a disadvantage to represent untrained usage.
Crew counters also have a Good Order side and a Broken side (ASL vets often refer to broken units as "brokies" - just thought that would amuse a few of you).
AFVs are considered to have an inherent morale (determined by nation and date , or in some cases by SSR) until they exit or bail out of their vehicle either voluntarily or due to combat results.
The last Infantry Counter Type is the simplest and the most vital to the uniqueness of ASL , the Squad Leader (SL) counter. A SL represents a single low level commander who enables or (in the case of very poor ones - which ARE represented!) disables the units he is with/near on the cardboard battlefield.
SL have two numbers on their Good Order Side. The first number represents the SLs inherent morale - which is usaully higher than the troops he commands. The second number is his Leadership Modifier - this is the Quantitavive amount of his combat effectiveness , ie how much he can affect the units with/near him to rally , survive under fire , and to fire effectively. SLs have a Good Order Side and a Broken side just like all other infantry units.
The key to the effectiveness of units in battle is the quality and effective use of the SL . The SL has several fundamental assets :
1) They can rally broken friendly units
2) They can increase the ability of units with/near them to maintain effectiveness under fire ( they may not break or pin as easily)
3) They can increase the effectiveness of fire of units they are with/near
4) They can increase the movement rate of units they are with
5) They can increase the portage capacity of the units they are with.
6) They can decrease the likelihood of weapons suffering random breakdowns , and increase the possibility of repair of said SW
7) They can increase the likelihood of and results of Close Combat , and infantry units willingness to engage AFVs in Close Combat.
SL are the backbone of the Game System. Period.
Support Weapons (SW)
SW are represented in ASL with their own counters. SW include Machine Guns (MG) , Light Mortars (40-60mm) , Flamethrowers (FT) , Demo Charges (DC) , Radios and Field Phones , Anti-Tank Rifles (ATRs) , Bazookas and Panzerschrecks.
Note* Panzerfausts, Anti-Tank Magnetic Mines, Molotov Cocktails are considered abstractly as a possibility inherent in a squad's armament depending on nationality, theatre and date.
SW have a Good Order side and a Malfunctioned side , and every use includes the possibility of a breakdown (which is also intended to include temporary disfunctionality caused by ammo depletion , clearing dud rounds , changeing hot MG barrels etc , etc).
Such malfunctions have a subsequent repair possibility.
Each SW has a Portage cost - so commanders must carefully consider which units will carry which SWs.
Each SW (Exc Radios and Field Phones , obviously) has a Firepower, a range , and a Rate of Fire possibility.
Radios and Field Phones are used to direct Offboard Artillery.
That's all the juice I have for now. My next post will be about Ordnance and AFV counters.
For what it's worth , I think the most salient and dynamic addition that ASL offers is the concept of Leadership. Obviously I don't know how SEOW reflects tactical leadership now , but I suspect that this is one area where SEOW may borrow some mechanisms from ASL.
Sincerely,
Kopfdorfer
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II/JG54_Emil
- Posts: 272
- Joined: Thu 07 May 2009 10:45 am
This sounds very intersting Kopfdorfer.
I fear it may be a bit too complex for IL2 or SEOW.
If we succed to combine CE with supply-status and morale we take SEOW one level higher in terms of emersion.
In my thinking:
Combat Experience would be depending on Combat Victory/defeat of a unit!!!
The Combat Victory/defeat is influenced by CE, morale and supply-status.
Morale is influenced by CE and Combat Victory/defeat and supply-status.
Supply-status is only influenced by consumption and supply provison(we have that already).
CE <--> Combat Victory
CE ---> Morale
Morale <--> Combat Victory
Supply ---> Morale
(Supply ---> Combat Victory)
I hope this makes sence and is simple enough to put into SEOW.
I fear it may be a bit too complex for IL2 or SEOW.
If we succed to combine CE with supply-status and morale we take SEOW one level higher in terms of emersion.
In my thinking:
Combat Experience would be depending on Combat Victory/defeat of a unit!!!
The Combat Victory/defeat is influenced by CE, morale and supply-status.
Morale is influenced by CE and Combat Victory/defeat and supply-status.
Supply-status is only influenced by consumption and supply provison(we have that already).
CE <--> Combat Victory
CE ---> Morale
Morale <--> Combat Victory
Supply ---> Morale
(Supply ---> Combat Victory)
I hope this makes sence and is simple enough to put into SEOW.
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II/JG77Hawk_5
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Wed 10 Jan 2007 1:13 am
- Location: Sydney, Australia
One thing that concerns me is that and combat experience/effectiveness model must work within the framework of what happens during the mission and the subsequent eventlog generated by that.
To have an evolving combat experience for infantry or any other ground unit for that matter would require an ever changing technics file would it not? I mean this in a way that an improvement affects the units battlefield capability in direct combat. The only way we see this sort of thing modelled at the moment is by limiting the opening engagement range which can be written into the mission file. To improve the survivability of one unit type through some other means eg. improved armour, weapon firepower, movement speed etc. requires a technics file change. On second look we do of course in HSFX 7 have the new feature where many ground units now have the skill levels. This doesn't require a technics change of course and adds another method of changing these levels for units in the mission file.
Sure this is probably possible but I believe highly impractical (the technics file method that is). Each individual mission file would also require its own specific technics file which ideally each mission client should also be using during the mission. This means the new technics files also has to be distributed for each mission also. Like I said, impractical.
One solution? The DCS could analyze the unit combat results and add or subract unit strength based on the current combat experience level of the unit so as to either improve or worsen the outcome of a unit if it was seen to have been engaged by an enemy unit. eg. Infantry vs infantry engagement results in one of these units going from a strength of 4 to a strength of 2. Based on the fact that this "losing" unit actually had a high combat experience this could be adjusted by the DCS to a loss of only one making the strength back to 3. Some of the guys who dropped dead didn't die, they were just lighly wounded and were taking cover. I've had some other thoughts in discussion with Badger on TS which he or I'll add in another post.
This is of course only focusing on how to implement this and not on how to derive the combat experience factor. How its implemented while still taking into account the outcome of the eventlog and what happens on the battlefield without resorting to impractical methods is still important. Maybe this limits how complicated a model it can end up being?
Cheers,
5
Edit: to make more sense
To have an evolving combat experience for infantry or any other ground unit for that matter would require an ever changing technics file would it not? I mean this in a way that an improvement affects the units battlefield capability in direct combat. The only way we see this sort of thing modelled at the moment is by limiting the opening engagement range which can be written into the mission file. To improve the survivability of one unit type through some other means eg. improved armour, weapon firepower, movement speed etc. requires a technics file change. On second look we do of course in HSFX 7 have the new feature where many ground units now have the skill levels. This doesn't require a technics change of course and adds another method of changing these levels for units in the mission file.
Sure this is probably possible but I believe highly impractical (the technics file method that is). Each individual mission file would also require its own specific technics file which ideally each mission client should also be using during the mission. This means the new technics files also has to be distributed for each mission also. Like I said, impractical.
One solution? The DCS could analyze the unit combat results and add or subract unit strength based on the current combat experience level of the unit so as to either improve or worsen the outcome of a unit if it was seen to have been engaged by an enemy unit. eg. Infantry vs infantry engagement results in one of these units going from a strength of 4 to a strength of 2. Based on the fact that this "losing" unit actually had a high combat experience this could be adjusted by the DCS to a loss of only one making the strength back to 3. Some of the guys who dropped dead didn't die, they were just lighly wounded and were taking cover. I've had some other thoughts in discussion with Badger on TS which he or I'll add in another post.
This is of course only focusing on how to implement this and not on how to derive the combat experience factor. How its implemented while still taking into account the outcome of the eventlog and what happens on the battlefield without resorting to impractical methods is still important. Maybe this limits how complicated a model it can end up being?
Cheers,
5
Edit: to make more sense
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II/JG54_Emil
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IV/JG7_4Shades
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Last edited by IV/JG7_4Shades on Sat 21 Dec 2013 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
IV/JG7_4Shades
SEOW Developer
SEOW Developer
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II/JG54_Emil
- Posts: 272
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IV/JG7_4Shades
- Posts: 2202
- Joined: Mon 08 Jan 2007 11:10 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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II/JG54_Emil
- Posts: 272
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