4.PzAOK Composition - 23 Dec 1943

WTE_Ikey · Post by **WTE_Ikey** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:05 am

Great work Emil, thanks.

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:44 am

Updated the maps and added the Soviet army positions on the smaller more detailed map.
Also one the is the off-map/reserve positiion of the XXXXVI Pz.Korps north that took the main thrust of the 13th Army. All off this iwas happening off map north, while 25th Tank-Coprs of the 13th Army was driven towards Korosten(AC-15).

Also note that the position on 18th and 38th army are swapped for the positions of the 3rd Gard Tank Army on the bigger map.

The red positions are taken from this map which is considerably accurate.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/mos ... -2/s08.jpg

Also note that from from 12. January 1944 the Panzerkorps of 1. Panzerarmee and 8. Armee could not avoid being invloved in the battle.

II/JG3K.Brandle · Post by **II/JG3K.Brandle** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:54 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... IfAo#t=26s

IV/JG7_Warg · Post by **IV/JG7_Warg** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:38 pm

G'day,

Ah, "old blood and guts", General George S Patton. Armoured specialist, soldier, leader, historian and great humanitarian. Actor George C Scott really nailed the role. Is nice to see you back on the forums Brandle. Haven't seen you about lately and am sure Patton would be just the man to slap you out of any idea of taking convalescence.

Regards,
Warg

WTE_Ikey · Post by **WTE_Ikey** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Its amazing how the smell of impending death & destruction in the Ukraine countryside will bring a bloke out of semi retirement.

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:19 pm

Are you back Brändle?
At least you´re alive, that´s good news.

II/JG3K.Brandle · Post by **II/JG3K.Brandle** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:12 pm

I am very alive, healthy and working on returning as soon as possible.

I don't visit the forums that much because I know exactly what I will find here: The best friends I have ever had doing the most enjoyable thing I have ever been involved with. This is motivating me to repair my little problems and get back to leading my wing men to a fiery death and my virtual forces to complete destruction.

Post by **IV/JG7_4Shades** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:05 pm

and get back to leading my wing men to a fiery death and my virtual forces to complete destruction

Hey, that's my role too!

LW/JG10_Armwaar · Post by **LW/JG10_Armwaar** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:57 pm

II/JG3K.Brandle wrote:I am very alive, healthy and working on returning as soon as possible.

I don't visit the forums that much because I know exactly what I will find here: The best friends I have ever had doing the most enjoyable thing I have ever been involved with. This is motivating me to repair my little problems and get back to leading my wing men to a fiery death and my virtual forces to complete destruction.

Your new SEOW nickname is "Ted Stryker." I picture you sitting in your cockpit with your drinking problem, telling stories about that time over Macho Grande.

Oh the times we had in the Kuban!

JG26_Scannon · Post by **JG26_Scannon** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:20 pm

II/JG3K.Brandle wrote:I am very alive, healthy and working on returning as soon as possible.

I don't visit the forums that much because I know exactly what I will find here: The best friends I have ever had doing the most enjoyable thing I have ever been involved with. This is motivating me to repair my little problems and get back to leading my wing men to a fiery death and my virtual forces to complete destruction.

Greetings Brandle.... I empathize with your comments as I too am a natural born killer......It's fate you know. Nobody can stop fate, nobody can.

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:47 pm

This is a very good and interesting read scientific publication of military historian:

Furor Teutonicus:
German Offensives and Counter-Attacks on the Eastern Front, August 1943 to March 1945
Gregory Liedtke - Royal Military College of Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article examines the notion that the Battle of Kursk represented the end of German offensive operations on the Eastern Front, and that henceforth the German Army was solely tied to the defensive. Focusing upon the strength of the German formations involved, it outlines a number of the dozens of German offensives and counter-attacks that occurred during the period of 1943–1945. The article concludes that the German Army retained its offensive capabilities till the end of the war and that its operations played a significant, but frequently forgotten, role in shaping the Russo-German conflict.

Details here (print out is possible):
http://www.readbag.com/cda-cdai-ca-cdai ... -liedtke08

Page 11-15 have an especially interesting background for our campaigns.
I find the Soviet losses reported by Manstein incredible, but the official Russian estimates of their losses were 3,5 times higher.
87473 soviet soldiers lost!

INSANE!!!

Post by **IV/JG7_4Shades** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:52 pm

yes, a good read indeed. Thanks Emil.

I am keen to see if SEOW and HSFX can produce a realistic attack and withdraw engagement. We have the perfect test with our Korosten' scenario.

We learnt from the Sarata campaign that an outnumbered defense can still provide dangerous resistance against a disorganized and over-confident attacker. The Soviet armoured strength we had in Sarata was something like 2 or 3 to 1 over the defenders, and with some early friendly fire losses the Soviets only just managed to weed out the last StuGs in the late afternoon of the siege.

Korosten' will see similar-strength armoured forces opposed, but on a wider front, so commanders will have the ability to concentrate defences and attack. Very interesting.

Faustnik · Post by **Faustnik** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:44 pm

How many minutes for a turn?

Post by **IV/JG7_4Shades** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:10 am

No more than 60. It is possible to decide on a shorter time, e.g. 30 minutes, but we need to factor in the SEOW minimum time increment of 60 minutes. If we used 30 minutes per turn for combat, we would have 30 minutes per turn of no activity so a "24 hours of combat" campaign would need 48 consecutive 30 minute missions spread over two campaign days.

Faustnik · Post by **Faustnik** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:16 pm

1 hour is good. The smallest time is good, for ground fights.