German/Sviet starting morale

[Petr]

I'm a bit surprised to see German morale lower than Soviet morale. Especially for the elite Pz Divs good morale seems an under appreciation. While at the same time, accross the board Excellent morale for Soviet units also seems strange.

Perhaps I'm missing something so don't take this as criticism!

Cheers,
petr

[II/JG54_Emil]

I posted about it in this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=2372

The Zustandsberichte of the of the army units of that time in this area, all report the same mess lack of equipment and lack of reinforcements and supply:

From the Zustandberichten I read the new arrivals were cherry boys, they in the best cases only had 2 months of training and therefore(in case of 25.PzD for example):

Kampfwert der Division: Für Angriffsaufgaben zunächst bedingt geeignet, für Abwehraufgaben geeignet, im Großkampf Krisenfestigkeit fraglich.
Combat value of the Division:
For assault roles initially limited suitability, suitable for defense duties, panic-proofness questionable.

Which means this could/should have an effect on the moral of the German troops.

This goes especially for Sicherungs-Division 454(that´s why it was withdrawn from the fontline earlier on in the Campaign and sent to Korosten) and Korps-Abteilung C.
Korpsabteilung C was put together by 3 Infantriedivisions and yet still didn´t have the the full divisionla size.
Maybe they were happy that they were thrown together to combatworthy size and therefore have good moral again.

But surely the German units didn´t have any reason whatsoever to have excellent moral.

Different for the Russians most of them are Guards. They are well reinforced and equipped, compared to earlier on in the war. And last but not least they are winning battle after battle.

[Petr]

I see your point. I think were I go left and you go right is that you deduct that lack of supplies automatically means that German units would lose morale.

I don't believe that the elite units would be subject to this. They still had superior equipment (tanks, machine guns, etc...) and they believed in the cause. Their morale remained excellent till the very end. How else can you explain the incredible defense they put up. You seem to be German? Perhaps you're selling your country men a bit short?

Guards units did not necessarily mean they would have high morale. There are plenty of examples of Guards divisions with low quality. Sure they were slightly better equipt as the normal rifle div, but it wasn't a huge difference. In addition, the Russians were running into serious manpower problems and the quality of their infantry divisions declined ever further. Many times all abled bodies men were pressed into the line when Soviet territory was reconquered, and that with no training or even uniforms. A more balanced histrorical situation would be:
1. GTC = Excellent
2. All the rest good.

The Germans remained a markable qualitative edge till the very last (including the West in 44) on all fronts. Those Pz divisions certainly would be streched by supply since pretty much Barbarossa, but they still did what they did.

Cheers,
Petr

[II/JG54_Emil]

Just to explain a bit more literally what I mean.

A year ago I had a talk with the brother of my grandfather.
This is his unepicly short story of the war:

After merely 2 months of, my granduncles´ basic training in Denmark in Summer 1944 his unit was sent to Holland.
After barely having arrived they saw bullets flying left and right and grenades exploding. And within a blink of an eye he was prisoner of war.
A fighting soldier he was only for a moment while being a POW for 1,5 years.

My grandfather however served in the Luftwaffe since September 1939. He was part of the paratroopers later in the war. Being part of 3.FsJgDiv, Reg.8, 14.Kp. they took very heavy casualties at St.Lô and managed to break through the pocket of Falaise (they broke through armored lines).
After the pocket of Falaise the 3. FsJDiv was reduced from ~15000 to ~2000.

Combat skill/fate couldn´t be more contrary.

If you fill up the fading combat elite with freshlings that barely learned to hold the gun, skill and moral is thinning out.

I think good morale for German units at Korosten is appropriate.

[LW/JG10_Armwaar]

I think part of the issue that started this discussion is the literal meaning of the word "morale."

My interpretation of the intent of adding morale to the SEOW system is to have a reflection of the unit's ability to fight in addition to its size.

If I were to suggest a long term change to SEOW, it would be to change the label of "morale" to "organization." Unit organization is used in other strategy games to represent a similar concept that morale is currently representing in SEOW.

Organization can involve a number of components like:
- level of supply
- quality of the commanders
- quality of the training
- amount of veterans vs the amount of new replacements
- level of fanatic support for "the cause"

Many things that lower morale also lower organization. In other words, they reduce the units ability to fight, suppress it, confuse it, that sort of thing.

These items are represented in SEOW by artillery barrages, friendly unit types, flak guns, captains, generals, supplies, etc.

Whether you call it morale or organization, the model is the same, the units ability to fight either goes up or down as the other goes up or down.

[II/JG54_Emil]

I go with Organization.

Good idea.

[EAF331_Snafu]

Reading about this phase in the war in "black cross - red star", and Günther Rall's and Walter Krupinsky's war diaries, the forces were demoralized indeed. The bitter disappointment of the important lost battles in 42-43 and then being blamed for everything and demonized afterward, like at Stalingrad. Except maybe a few hardliner nazis, all of the men at the front felt the total situation to be due to
> questionable strategic decisions;
> the lack of resupply both in men and equipment (which compounded the problems of front line pilots that were never rested);
> the strategic bombardments by the U.S.A.F. had started in 1943. No- one, either soldier or citizen on the german side (and everywhere else in the world), needed explanation; they knew excactly what that meant.

Besides that, all of them say they knew the war was over before 1942 was out (Krupinsky tells his girlfriend the war is lost during december 1941). Try to keep morale up under those circumstances.

Maybe you could use the "reliability" variable in the IL-2 engine to simulate low serviceability for 2 factions separately? I don't know whether that's possible.

[II/JG3K.Brandle]

The Lions of Carentan
Fallschirmjager Reg 6, '43-'45
by Volker Griesser

is a great book Emil. I am reading it now and its detailing exactly what you are referring to above with the few hardened vets being reinforced by hordes of newbies, the fading morale, etc.

The paras were sent to the very eye of the storm and faced the brunt of the allied troops breaking through Axis defensive lines time and time again.

I will send it to you if you cant get a copy but you should try to because this is a fairly inexpensive book that you would probably find very rewarding.