I have mentioned that I am working on a Normandy campaign and work has progressed far enough to ask the SEOW experts on this forum for their comments and suggestions.
I also would like to extend a hand to any interested parties to fly the German side to become involved in the playbalance testing about to start at this moment. There is but one condition for those who wish to join the devellopment of this scenario. They are to agree to total secrecy towards anyone not involved in the tests when it comes to the OoB's and more specifically the entry times and locations of the reinforcements. Especially within their squads! A lot of the fun will depend on not knowing this information eventhough I have tried to put in some variation of the entry dates. If you can agree to that, and would like to lend a hand in developping this further and/or if your squad is interested in participating in the real thing, then please drop me a PM. Many thanks!
This is the post I made on the giap forums to gauge interest within our squad. I've left it largly unedited as I have no secrets in my design goals. One point I do want to make very clearly, while historically Operation Overlord was a one sides affair in the air and, as a concequence, to a lesser extend on the ground, that is not my intention in this scenario! It needs to fun a challenging BUT it does need to contain the unique challenges on both sides, with strength and weaknesses carefully balanced to make a immersive campaign. There is no point in making something that is one sided and I know for sure that the 69 GIAP wants a challenge!
Normandy D-Day +1, Operation Overlord, The Beginning of the End
Historical Normandy was much more of a close run thing than most people appreciate. I don't think there was ever a real chance of throwing the Allies back into the sea once the initial landings had succeeded, if only because of the
terrible force of the naval barrage, but forcing a stalemate was definitely a possibility. From the Germans perspective, the Normandy bridgehead was a relatively small front compared to the vast expanse of Russia and cheap to defend.
Keeping the Allies bottled up indefinitely would definitely have been a German strategic Victory.
My feeling is that there is a strong group of members in the squad who like to play historical based campaigns. To relive a battle as accurate as possible within the framework of the SEOW/IL2 combination. This campaign is an attempt to
combine the different elements of war, put them into a historical correct contex (historical Order of Battles, historical correct fixed setups, correct map), with correct emphasis on each element (rules and optional rules, extra land
move, etc...), so as to present the commanders with historically correct choices while eliminating the more "gamey" options all together and so to arrive at a very immersive campaign which still can be won by either side through a set of
"smart" victory conditions. This is undoubtedly the logest sentence I have ever written!
I'm hoping to design a scenario that on the ground, given equal play, will favor the Allies in general but which gives the Axis a serious punch if they ever manage to concentrate those Panzer Divisions. Needless to say, that is exactly
what the Allies need to prevent. They need to be aggressive enough to force the Germans to deploy those Panzers defensively but not so aggressive that they are vulnerable to counterattack and dissaster.
In the air things should be as equal as possible, with historical advantages and disadvantages that the planes involved have. To achieve this an important consession has had to be made with the ahistorical strong Luftwaffe. But in the
interest of finding an actually opponent this cannot be helped
, and besides, we yappers want to shoot at things too...So in effect concerning Air war, the game departs history in that it is assumed the Germans made different decisions during the war which has allowed them to keep the Lufwaffe a force to be reconned with and that the Allies attempted the
invasion with Air parity.
Another consession has had to be made concerning naval units. You could argue that it would add extra immersion to let the Allies ferry all their troops from England to the beaches and I would agree. However, this would add a lot of
naval moves into the mix and, since naval moves are server heavy I am not sure it would be worth deminishing the ground war for this reason. Secondly, with this obvious achilles heel, it wouldn't take a clever opponent to concentrate on
sinking Allied ships, especially since they earn him so much points. To make matters worse, ship AA is an absolute nightmare for server performance and therefore needs to be tuned down. Combine this with an ahistorical strong Luftwaffe
and you would really be making it easie for the Axis to pursue this strategy. For all these reasons, all ships have been left out of the game and it Allied reinforcements arrive on the beaches. From there on they can, off course, be
harrassed.
Campaign settings
-SIDES:
Allied: Giap, others?
Axis: ???
- DICE ROLLS: whenerver there is mention about making a dice roll it is assumed that this will be done through an automated internet dice server which emails the result to the requested email addresses. ALWAYS when a die is requested,
the admin must be in copy! Failure to do so will automatically result in a re-roll. This is not about thrust, but all about making sure thrust is maintained. Instruction on how to use the dice server and exact protocol at a later date.
-TRAINS: YES, Axis only.
In an effort to limit the ground unit movement problem, and with the extra options in HSFX mods, trains seem the right way forward. The Axis will have a limited amount of trains at the start which they can complement by producing more.
I'm thinking about 5 at start, Maximum of 2 produced per day for a maximum of 10.
- RADAR: YES, both sides
- PRODUCTION/FACTORIES: YES, AXIS only, and only for planes and trains. The Allied receive a fixed amount of resupply points which can only be spent on planes. This represents off map production which cannot be attacked by the Germans.
In addition to the on map production for the Axis which counts for 50%, they also receive 50% from off map production which cannot be attacked by the Allies.
I still need to decide how much points each side will have each turn. This depends highly op playtesting.
Note: the effect aimed for is that the Allies can really hurt the Axis by going after the factories but can never totally cripple them. At the same time the Axis will need to defend their production or face the consequences. I'm unsure
how destructive those B-17, B-24 and B-25 can be when it comes to bombing factories, I'd appreciate some feedback from the Bap-ers on this.
- IL2 version: HSFX latest version available, mods on.
Note: which exact mods will be on depends on server performance as it is rumored that certain mods can really hurt the server.
- MAP: Normandy2
This map is not perfect. I'd have wanted a bit more RR stations, airfields and would have loved to have the Contentin Peninsular included. In addition, Bocage and it's excellent defensive properties is not included at all! Anyway, it'll
do but because Cherbourg is not included, all troops on both sides which were involved in the fighting to first cut off and then capture Cherbourg are left out. The Axis are not allowed use of Valonges Airfield.
-MOVES:
Land moves per side: 60-70! Yes I know! Needs to be tested.
Sea moves: none, no fleet included either side.
Pilot seats: 32 per side, maybe more? Dare I say 40?
- One turn: 1.5 hours
- Game length: 7th June till 30th June 1944
3 turns per day of which 2 flyable:
first turn 8-10am flyable
second turn 14-16pm flyable
thrid turn 20-22pm not flyable (some exceptions), ground movement only (more below).
Total flyable turns: 48
Total turns: 72
Note: I fully appreciate this is long but I think it needs to be to get the full flavor of the campaign and to reach a the level of immersion we are looking for. In addition, I'm thinking that this should be a multisquad campaign run on
Wednesdays and Sundays to reduce the total length in time needed to complete the campaign. 30-40 human pilots on each side would just be awesome! I'm also thinking with the MTO campaign coming up, we could propose to the Italians to
participate in this campaign somewhere down the road.
Note2: The extra land turn should be done quickly so as to not block planning for the following flyable turn. The reason for doing this is to put a little bit more aim on the ground war. I know we are in this to fly, but we have too be
honest and admit, that no wars are won by air alone. They can and should tip the balance either way but should not decide the issue singlehandedly. Hence the extra ground move, we 'll see if it works in playtesting.
- BRIDGES: repair automatically after 1 turn.
- GROUND MOVEMENT: off road allowed during whole move, bridges needed.
- Setup: Historical setup. Fixed for both sides.
- SUPPLY: NO BUT:
Line of Communications (LOC)
While I would prefer to use the supply feature in the game due to platoon movement limitations and other problems this is not possible. On the other hand I do want to keep the actions of the commanders to the realm of reality. So here's
what I came up with:
1. A unit must at all times be able to trace a LOC back to a supply source.
2. A supply source is any HQ (which can trace a LOC itself) or any Ground resupply point on the map.
3. Obviously, you can only trace a LOC to your own sides supply sources. Duh!
4. A LOC can be of any length.
5. A LOC is traced from the unit to a supply source.
6. A LOC can have up to two elements.
- Off road: Can ONLY be the first element of the LOC and can be maximum of 1 grid in length.
- Road/RR: Can only be the second element and can be mixed up as desired.
7. If a unit is unable to trace a LOC, the unit can only move backwards towards his own lines. If a unit cannot trace a LOC for 4 consequtive turns, it is removed from the game but can be rebuild.
8. LOC's will be checked each turn before planning begins by the admin and Commanders will be informed if any units which fail to trace a LOC.
9. HQ's must be able to trace a LOC as above except that it cannot have an off road element. If an HQ cannot trace a LOC, it cannot be used to bring replacements into play (see below)
10. A captured HQ can function as a supply source provided it can trace a LOC as described above.
Need advice here:
11. A blown bridge during the road/rail part of the LOC BREAKS the LOC.
What do you guys think about that?
- REINFORCEMENTS:
1. Land: through OoB on edge of map (Axis) or beaches (Allies), arrival randomized slightly, options available. Axis ONLY can build trains; 2 per turn, maximum 10 on map.
2. Sea: Not available.
3. Air: Through production
- REPLACEMENTS:
Land:
1. One fourth of the losses sustained arrive back as replacements. So for ever 4 T-34 85 you get 1 T-34 85. These can be accumulated and be brought into play as a unit of 4 if enough losses of the exact type have occured. This represent
lightly wounded returning and/or repair at workshops.
Note: We can keep track of this through the SEOW statistics pages. After each turn, the admin takes a screenshot of the losses and commander need to make requests. This is some bookkeeping but not anywhere near prohibitive.
2. Variable replacements
Instead of receiving a fixed amount of platoons per DAY (3 turns) the Commander roles 2 dice (six sides) through a dice server per TURN.
Axis:
Die Roll Replacements
2-5 1xvehicle or AT/AA
6-9 1xvehicle or AT/AA AND 1xarmour (No Tiger or Jagdpanther)
10-12 2xvehicle-AT/AAT AND 2x 4xarmour (or 1x 4xTiger or Jadgpanther) AND 1 arty (any type)
Allied:
Die Roll Replacements
2-5 2xvehicle or AT/AA
6-9 3xvehicle or AT/AA AND 2xarmour AND 1 arty (any type)
10-12 5xvehicle-AT/AA AND 4xarmour AND 2 arty (any type)
These replacements can ONLY be used to bring back eliminated units. So if there are no Tigers in the dead pile you can not replace them. Replacements can be saved for a later turn.
Replacement units can be brought into play on HQ's (which are also a resupply point for ground units) as long as the HQ can trace a LOC (without off road element) to a re-supply point on t he edge of the map.
It is the commanders responsibility to keep track of which units can be replaced.
- VICTORY
This is still in devellopment but I'm thinking of the following:
10 Axis HQ's which represent Victory objectives (VO), 1 in each of these locations: Caen, Carentan, Isigny, Bayeaux, St-Lo, Villers Bocage, Vire, Avranches, Falaise and Argentan.
The allies have 5 HQ's, 1 in each location on the beach: C-9 (Utah), E-9 (Omaha), G-9 (Gold), H-9 (Juno) and I-8 K5 (Sword)
Victory is determined by who controls the most of the 10 Axis HQ's at the end of the game.
Allied held HQ's Axis Held HQ's Result
0-1 10-9 Total Axis Victory
2-3 8-7 Decisive Axis Victory
4 6 Marginal Axis Victory (historical result within timeframe of game)
5 5 Draw
6 4 Marginal Allied Victory
7-8 3-2 Decisive Allied Victory
9-10 1-0 Total Allied Victory
1. If the Axis ever capture an Allied HQ (i.e on the beaches), with a unit that can trace a LOC, even for one turn, the victory level shifts 1 in favor of the Axis, i.e. a decisive Allied victory would become a Marginal Allied victory.
This can happen multiple times and results are cumulative. Contesting an HQ is not enough.
Note: This represents the uproar cased at home by such a setback. And besides, it keeps the Allies honest.
2. If the Axis ever capture 2 Allied HQ's (i.e. on the beaches), with a unit or units that can trace a LOC, even for one turn, the game ends with a total Axis victory.
Note: It is assumed that the Allied would call of the invasion and evacuate their troops to try again elsewhere or the year after.
3. If the Allies capture 6 German HQ's before turn 30, the game ends with a Decicive Allied victory. (Exception, the Axis hold one Allied HQ.)
4. For every 10000 points (not rounded) of enemy destroyed materiel in excess of losses suffered counts as 1 victory shift in favor of the side with the positive saldo. Example, if at the end of the campaign the Allies 8 HQ's this would
be a Decisive Allied Victory. However, the Axis have managed to capture a beach HQ somewhere in the campaign so this becomes a Marginal Victory. But the Allies have inflicted 22000 more losses to the Axis then they lost themselves
turning it again to a Total Allied Victory.
Note: I think this system stimulates historical play without forcing the players to do so. It is merely in the Allies best interests to capture the HQ's as fast as possible, and for the Axis to defend determinedly and not just run away.
Lastly, it gives the Axis some real incentives to try and attack (but without sacrifycing the rest of their turf while doing so) whith the aim to capture 2 Allied HQ's and win the game.
- WEATHER
During the historical campaign the Allies where confronted with the worst June storm to hit the Channel in 40 years, causing a great deal of destruction to shipping and the wrecking of the US Mulberry at Omaha beach. During the 3 days of
storm, no supplies or reinforcements could be landed by the allies.
To simulate this there will be One full day of storm. the exact time will be unknown to the commanders at the beginning of the game. This time will be determined by the Admin at the start of the game and the admin will inform the
commanders of the coming storm One day (3 turns) before the storm starts. During the storm the following rules are in effect:
1. NO flights will be possible for both sides.
2. Allied Reinforcements/replacements ONLY will be delayed to the first turn after the end of the storm.
3. Allied land moves ONLY will be reduced by 1/3. This represents an effort to save fuel.
4. Allied troops must stop offensive operations. If they are engaged in a battle they must not move back, but cannot move forward. Should the Axis launch an offensive, the Allies are allowed to counterattack THIS drive. This represents
an effort to conserve supplies and a general stand down to defensive operations during the storm.
Once the storm has passed, everything returns to normal.
- VARIABLE REINFORCEMENT ENTRY
1. Per default reinforcement divisions and other troops enter on their historical date and location. This will be briefed to the commanders in question but ,obviously, only for their troops before the start of the game. Reinforcing units
arrive always at the start off the morning turn.
2. Commanders may request a different Ground resupply point (then the historical one) for individual units. I.e. Divisions or Brigades, but not for individual platoons. For example, the Axis 353th Inf. Div is scheduled to enter the map
at location X, then the commander can request another entry location for the whole Division at location Y.
3. When requesting another entry location then the scheduled one, the commander must do so 1 day in advance (3 turns). This is to simulate the time needed to divert the troops.
4. When reinforcements are 3 days out (9 turns) 2 dice will be thrown to see if they arrive earlier.
Die result
2-3 1 turn later
4-7 Historic entry date
8-10 1 turn earlier
11-12 1 die roll, 1-2 => 2 turns, 3-4 => 3 turns, 5-6 => 4 turns
Note: This is to avoid players reading up on the battle and knowing when what will arrive and planning accordingly. Besides, it keeps it fun!
5. The above does not apply to formations scheduled to arrive on turn 2.
6. The entry date for certain Divisions or Corps can be brought forward but there is a VP point price associated with it:
Axis
Units Earliest turn Cost
9-10SS 25 7000 points added to score of Allies
II SS Corps (1-2SS) 33 8000
Allies
Guards armour 35 3500 points added to score of Axis
3rd US Armour 22 3500
Note: the intent here is to give each side a last card to play if things look veryn bleak. It is assumed here that given pending dissaster reinforcements would have been rushed to the front with more expediency. Time and costs may change
depending on playtesting.
- PLANES IN THE SET
You can always buy a previous model in the Series at the reduced price in SEOW completely optional.
Axis:
FW-190A-8 Wuerger (16) 205 = 3280
FW-190D-9 1944 Wuerger (16) 230 = 3360
FW-190F-8 Wuerger (8 ) 200 = 1600
Bf-109G-6/AS Gustav (20) 195 = 3900
ME-210C-A1 (12) 245 = 2940
ME-410A (12) 260 = 3120
He-111H-21 (16) 220 = 3520
Ju-88 Mistel (2) 220 = 440
Ju-87G-2 Stuka (8 ) 210 = 1680
Ju-88A-4 (16) 220 = 3520
FW-2000C3 (4) 330 = 1320
Ju-52-3MG6E Tante Ju (6) 160 = 960
FW-189A-2 Uhu (6) 175 = 1050
Total 154 = 30690
Allies:
Allied:
P-38J (12) 180 = 2160
P38L (4) 185 = 740
P-47D-27 Thunderbolt (16) 190 = 3040
P-47D-22 Thunderbolt (12) 195 = 2340
P-47D/150 Thunderbolt 180 (only after campaign starts as replacements)
P-51D-20NA Mustang (16) 215 = 3440
Spitfire MkIX all versions except BOOST (16) 210 = 3360
Tempest MkV 13 lb Boost (12) 230 = 2760
Mosquito FB MkVI (12) 230 = 2760
A-20G Boston (8 ) 235 = 1880
B-17G Flying Fortress (12) 320 = 3840
B-24J-100 Liberator (8 ) 310 = 2480
B-25J-1 Mitchell (8 ) 235 = 1880
C-47 Dakota (6) 160 =
Total 142 = 31640
Note: Exact numbers need to be determined when we know the amount of seats and depending on negotiations. Alternatively, I'm thinking about defining a budget and allowing the commanders to buy there own mix of planes as they see fit.
Thoughts?
I'm really looking forward to hearing your views with regards to the planeset. Earlier types for specific planes can be taken as well. I've followed the dates in the SEOW database as a source to when these planes were available.
Concenning costs, I'm thinking per SEOW standard. Would this work?
- AIRBASES
1. All Airbases except Valonges and the British Isles are in Axis use.
2. The airbase at the British Isles in Allied.
3. All airbases are _heavily_ guarded with AA.
4. Both sides have Air resupply points from which planes can start. Any legal loadout can be selected by either side for new planes that enter the map through these Air Resupply Points.
Note: This to allow the Allies to simulate the bombers coming from Britian and I don't think the Axis will agree to this without having this capability too.
5. Most planes entering through and Air resupply point will have a restriction on how much fuel they are allowed to bring onto the map. Obviosusly this represents flight time coming from their home bases in England or, for the Axis, from bases off the map.
- LOADOUT RESTRICTIONS:
Not sure on this one, Shap and Bab pls give me advice.
- PARADROPS: Not allowed either side.
- ORDER OF BATTLE
This is still under devellopment and certain to change so I have not included it here in full. However, here are a few examples to get a feel for what I'm aming at:
Allies:
3rd London Inf Division
9x2 .50 cal
9x4 M3A1 Half Track
3x4 Stuart
3x4 M4A2_76W Sherman
3x4 M8 Greyhound
3x4 M16 Half Track + Quad
3x4 75mm AT
3x4 45mm AT
3x2 85mm 1939-K AAA
3x2 M2A1 105mm
2nd Canadian Armoured Brig.
11x4 M4A2_76W Sherman
5x4 T34 85mm
3x5 M5 Stuarts
2x4 M16 Half Track + Quad
4x4 M8 Greyhound
3x4 Crusader Mk. VIII AAA
101st Airborn & attached units
6x2 .50 cal
14x4 US inf.
4x4 45mm AT
8x2 Bazoka
3x4 M4A2_76W Sherman
3x4 M8 Greyhound
2x2 152mm ML-20 Houwitzer
3x2 M2A1 105mm
2nd Armoured US
11x4 M4A2_76W Sherman
5x4 T34 85mm
3x4 M5 Stuart
5x4 M16 Half Track + Quad
12x4 M8 Greyhound
3x4 Crusader Mk. VIII AAA
3x2 M2A1 105mm
Axis:
716th Static Inf div
1x3 Marder
4x2 Type 91 105mm Howitzer
4x2 static 20mm AA
15 Concrete Bunker MG
15 Concrete Bunker ATGun
4x2 Type 96 3x25mm AAA
352nd Inf div
9x2 MG42
3x4 37mm Pak 3
3x4 50mm Pak 38
3x4 pak 75mm
1x3 StugIII
1x3 Marder III
4x2 Type 91 150mm Howitzer
3x2 105mm howitzer
2x4 Type 96 3x25mm AAA
2x4 Sd.Kfz 6/2 37mm flak
2x2 88mm flak
6th Fall. Reg.
1x3 Marder III
5x2 MG-42
5x4 Pzgr Inf
1x2 Type 38 75mm Cannon
1x4 static 20mm AA
1x4 37mm Pak 35
1x4 50mm Pak 38
1x4 75mm Pak 40
130th Pz Lehr
3x4 Sd.kfz 3a 20mm flak 38
3x4 Sd Kfz 6/2 37mm
2x2 Type 91 105mm Howitzer
1x2 150mm Howitzer 1918
5x4 88mm Flak
16x4 Sd.Kfz 251/1 Hanomag
2x4 Pak 40
2x4 Pak 37
3x4 Pz III
5x3 Marder III
5x3 7.5cm Panzerjaeger 38 Hetzer
1x3 Stug III
6x4 Pz IV
6x4 Pz V
1x3 Pz VIE
3x3 Jagdpanther
ISS Corps
3x4 Tiger VIE
4x3 Jagdpanthers
1x2 Type 91 105mm Howitzer
1x2 Sd.Kfz4/1 + 15cm Pzw
12th SS HJ
3x4 Sd.kfz 3a 20mm flak 38
3x4 Sd Kfz 6/2 37mm
2x2 Type 91 105mm Howitzer
1x2 150mm Howitzer 1918
5x4 88mm Flak
16x4 Sd.Kfz 251/1 Hanomag
2x4 Pak 40
2x4 Pak 37
5x3 Marder III
5x3 7.5cm Panzerjaeger 38 Hetzer
3x4 PzIII
6x4 Pz IV
5x4 Pz V
1x3 Jagdpanther
2x4 Whirbelwind
1x2 Sd.Kfz4/1 + 15cm Pzw
A big thanks for all who made it till here. PLease let me know your thoughts!
Cheers,
Petr