Official SEOW

Maybe this has got too involved in detail too quickly ?.

The thing that stands out really is the potential willingness to use other games, it could be any of many.... to resolve aspects of a campaign.

Seow is a great campaign overlay but it need not limit itself to just input from il2.

Justus already went quite a long way with this, using Steel Panthers (very old but freely available) to resolve their combat.

Silent Hunter also jumps out doesn't it and, could for example, effect the supply and re-inforcement situation.

A variety of ground combat games could be made relevant.

Its relatively easy to create house rules for this kind of interaction, initialy the input could be entirely manual.

An important thing about such thoughts though is that whatever it was, would actaully be used by others outside of this thread ...and would not create a heap of work for anybody else to do.

Multiplayer:
ARMA2: 70-80 humans practically in COOP (depending on hardware),
230400 theoretical limit (144 * 4 (144 groups per side, 4 sides * 400) humans, depending on number of slots/soldiers created as playble in mission
CMBN: 2 humans (commanders) + large numbers of AI actors (probably about a regiment a side universaly. (but upto 2 per side if both players had high end hardware.)

Map Size:
ARMA2 (I44 Mod): 28km*23km (Chernarus), 12km*12km(Takistan), 20km*20km(Desert) / IronFront: 16kmx16km (Staszow), 7km*7km(Baranow)

CMBN: I don't know the precise dimensions, some of the stock and player made maps now are very large (they were very small in the original CMBN but the CW add on has rectified this) Some of the larger ones are probably getting on for about 10km's square. I think it could be unlimited even.

Logfile:
ARMA2: possible but to what detail I still need to find out

CMBN: Not by default I don't think. But the outcome of each game is a very clear and simple results screen that is easy to translate and also the admin can look around the field if the differentiation between destroyed and abandoned is important (as it should be depending upon who retains control of the field.) There maybe a log file even, it would probably require a pm to battlefront though.

AI Sophistication:
ARMA2: scripted movement with fairly realistic behavior when getting into firing range

CMBN: This is CM's strong point. C&C delays and the artillery system are very realistically handled. Units have moral, training, leadership ratings.
Supression & units breaking is very much part of the resolution.
line of sight and fields of fire are extremely detailed.
The casualty rates are usually pretty realistic for this reason.
The output at the end lists numbers KIA, wounded and MIA.

Map Editing:
ARMA2: complex
CMBN: straightforward

I think there is another factor that should be mentioned though here;-

Effort Required:-

You could set up an CMBN battle in about 10 mins, resolve it by direct IP in real time (as per il2 mission duration)...and then analyse the results (a few minutes but maybe 10 or so if you need to record which items are abandoned and reclaimable rather than destroyed.)

To set up an ARMAII (IF44) situation as described above..to interest & include the number of players required. To run a dedicated server to host it....

Its a huge amount of work isn't it. As much as the il2 aspect in all probability.

(god alone knows how much time it would take to automate that through a seow type output, the mission files are not simple txt files like for il2...
although it does support complex scripting.)

Coverage:-

Both have limitations:-

CMBN:- Currently only covers some of the the Westfront 44.

IF44:- Currently only covers Poland 44.

Both will expand probably.


Cost:-

CM is expensive and doesn't tend to get cheaper. But its not that demanding on hardware.

IF44 is quite reasonably priced ( and probably will get cheaper...) BUT you really do need high end hardware which is a pretty substantial hidden cost...

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In my view a campaign overlay for IF44 is not a bad idea, but its an entire project in its own right. the game system itself is every bit as complex (if not more so than il2...)

And at the end of the day it would do exactly what seow already does, give context to a FP environment whilst retaining the inherent Tactical and Strategic results resolution problems that both il2 and ARMAII (& IF44 by extension) inherently have. This is not a criticism of either, neither was designed to do that so why should they.

So although a campaign overlay for IF44 maybe a worthwhile undertaking it does not actually address any of il2's tactical or strategic weaknesses.

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I have been playing IF44 over the last nights and it is spectacular (when its not crashing currently..(a little buggy on release but it will be superb..) But its an entire universe of its own really.



Note:-

ArmaII free edition is available and the mechanics of that are pretty much Identical to IF44 although of course the hardware is different.

I would think the demo of CMBN is available also still from battlefront.
(it is only with the addition of the CW module though that it starts to 'fly'...)

In IL2 we can now drive a Jeep or a Kübelwagen. Sitting in your vehicle you can give orders to other planes wich is awesome.
Now we need someone to allow the game to assign ground vehicles platoons as wingmen, so you can give orders up to four platoons.
Easy orders like the ones we can give to the wingman or different Schwarms: attack this, loiter here, return, go to next waypoint, etc. Leaving them solve the engagement as they already do now but with the ability to retreat or attack if needed.
Same can work for ships if anyone makes them drivable. Someone made a drivable Bismark time ago but was never released. Anyway there is one drivable torpedo boat.

Yes, probably nothing to do with the matter discussed here.

Loon I agree with you if someone is going to spend time on the ground war let us have some more real time command and control. With HSFX 6 we should get cameras assigned to sides we can use those for things like coast watchers. Attaching cameras to vehicles is something else we may want to do.

Some scripts to automate some MP functions would make SEOW a more attractive strategy game. I really don't like spending hours moving individual units around on huge maps. Games like CMBN are scaled down to avoid this. Arma is squad level play so it's not an issue.

Arma already has the ability to do dynamic campaigns as I understand by listening to the guys playing the zombie mod . I just don't think that you need IL2 to compliment Arma unless you want to add strategic bombing which really isn't a squad level thing anyway. I think getting the SEOW community together to do some run an shoot is perhaps a good idea however. Surely we would have no 13 year olds running around throwing grenades

In IL2 we should keep the focus on flying and how the ground war is effected by pilots. While there are lots of things about the ground war that need attention the goal is to make the flying experience more complete and meaningful. For example some of the FAC mods show promise in this direction. While I have an interest in IL2 as a strategy game and have been involved in and designed campaign that have few pilots my interest is still in providing the best all around experience for players. A logical ground war is one of the components. Not only must the ground war feel relevant but it must function as realistically as possible to maintain the interest of the type of people we wish to attract to the game.

The question that I need answered is does the community want a ground war that models a strategic environment or one that is relevant to pilots at the squad level? SEOW is already flexable enough to do both but IL2 was designed to have individual units intereacting in real time, is this a problem?

Just an update on WW2 in Arma 3:

Iron front and Invasion 44 is now playable in Arma 3.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.p ... -in-Arma-3

Here is the setup guide:
https://dev.withsix.com/projects/lib-is ... tup-guides

Up to now it looks very good.
http://youtu.be/56D41Mhhrwk
http://youtu.be/FHkEhvicdWg

If it is possible to generate maps as in Arma 2 it would be worth checking.