Overall 4.PzAOK Command: General der Panzertruppen Erhard Raus
Korosten' Area
LIX Armee Korps - General der Infanterie Kurt von der Chevallerie
454.Sicherungs-Division (Generalleutnant Helmuth Koch) 800-1400 men
147.Reserve-Division (Generalleutnant Otto Matterstock) 1500? men
Korps-Abteilung C (Generalleutnant Wolfgang Lange) 1300-2400 men
291.Infanterie-Division (Generalleutnant Werner Goeritz) 1900-3000 men
Zhitomir Area
XXXXVIII Panzer Korps - General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck
1.Panzer-Division (Generalmajor Richard Koll) 2700-4600 men
1.SS Panzer-Division 'LSSAH' (SS Brigade-Fuehrer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS Theodor Wisch) 2200-3700 men
7.Panzer-Division (Oberst Adalbert Schultz) 800-1400 men
XIII Armee Korps - General der Infanterie Arthur Hauffe
208.Infanterie-Division (Generalmajor Hans Piekenbrock) 700-1400 men
340.Infanterie-Division (Oberst Werner Ehrig) 1200-2100 men
213.Sicherungs-Division (Generalleutnant Alex Goeschen) 600-900 men
68.Infanterie-Division (Oberst Paul Scheuerpflug) 900-1900 men
Berdichev/Kazatin Area
XXXXII Armee Korps - General der Infanterie Franz Mattenklot
SS Panzerkampfgruppe 'Das Reich' (SS Oberfuehrer Heinz Lammerding) 800-1200 men
8.Panzer-Division (Generalmajor Gottfried Froelich) 1300-2400 men
19.Panzer-Division (Generalmajor Hans Kaellner) 600-1300 men
25.Panzer-Division (Generalmajor Hans Troeger) 2800-4900 men
20.Panzergrenadier-Division (Generalleutnant Georg Jauer) 500-1000 men
Total Operational Armour Strength in 4.PzAOK (all areas, including KZBK and others)
Panzer I - 2
Panzer II - 9
Panzer III - 22
Panzer IV - 143
Panzer V 'Panther' - 28
Panzer VI 'Tiger' - 11
Sturmgeschuetz (80% StuGIII, 20% StuGIV) - 131
Panzerjaeger (Marder) - 83
Total - 529
Fully Operational Armour by Division on 20 Dec 1943
1.Panzer-Division :: 3 x PzII, 5 x PzIII, 22 x PzIV, 12 x PzV, 12 PzJg
1.SS Panzer-Division 'LSSAH' :: 2 x PzI, 3 x PzII, 3 x PzIII, 10 x PzIV, 6 x PzV, 3 x PzVI, 17 x StuG, 4 x PzJg
7.Panzer-Division :: 1 x PzIII, 12 x PzIV, 7 x PzJg
8.Panzer-Division :: 3 x PzII, 2 x PzIII, 27 x PzIV, 5 x PzJg
19.Panzer-Division :: 2 x PzIII, 14 x PzIV, 8 x PzJg
25.Panzer-Division :: 8 x PzIII, 43 x PzIV, 7 x StuG
SS Panzer-kampfgruppe 'Das Reich' :: 15 x PzIV, 10 x PzV, 4 x PzVI, 10 x StuG
20.Panzergrenadier-Division :: 1 x PzIII, 10 x StuG, 5 x PzJg
plus
StuG-Abteilungen 202,239,249,276,280 :: 86 x StuG
PzJg-Abteilungen 559,616,731 :: 42 x PzJg
s.Panzer-Abteilung :: 4 x PzVI
FUF Estimates of German OOB
6960 guns and mortars (excluding 5cm mortars)
1200 tanks and assault guns (actually only 432 operational)
500 aircraft from VIII.Fliegerkorps
4.PzAOK Composition - 23 Dec 1943
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IV/JG7_4Shades
- Posts: 2029
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4.PzAOK Composition - 23 Dec 1943
IV/JG7_4Shades
SEOW Developer
SEOW Developer
Hi Shades,
I was talking with you about the panzer ones and panzer twos.
The only panzer ones that would make sense is the Kleine panzerefehlshlswagen command vehicle and the panzer one Ausf C. The command version was used until late 1942. The Ausf C was a fast reconnaissance version used in the Eastern front in 1943.
The panzer II Ausf F was designated as a light reconnaissance tank produced from March 1941 to December 1942.
I was looking through a book "Encyclopedia of German tanks of World War II". It is really useful and is fairly inexpensive, I like that.
Is it possible to use reconnaissance tanks and other vehicles in similar ways as the reconnaissance aircraft? I'm not sure what the range for vehicle recon, maybe one-mile? Maybe you already have created a reconnaissance vehicle plotted similar to the aircraft recon system?
I was talking with you about the panzer ones and panzer twos.
The only panzer ones that would make sense is the Kleine panzerefehlshlswagen command vehicle and the panzer one Ausf C. The command version was used until late 1942. The Ausf C was a fast reconnaissance version used in the Eastern front in 1943.
The panzer II Ausf F was designated as a light reconnaissance tank produced from March 1941 to December 1942.
I was looking through a book "Encyclopedia of German tanks of World War II". It is really useful and is fairly inexpensive, I like that.
Is it possible to use reconnaissance tanks and other vehicles in similar ways as the reconnaissance aircraft? I'm not sure what the range for vehicle recon, maybe one-mile? Maybe you already have created a reconnaissance vehicle plotted similar to the aircraft recon system?
Last edited by Faustnik on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IV/JG7_4Shades
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IV/JG7_Warg
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:02 am
G'day 4Shades,
Just a note following our earlier discussion on TS3. As Faustnic mentioned, those Pzkw I's are probably Bef HQ vehicles, though I'd guess that the Germans might be using outmoded Pzkw III's with dummy main gun armament for the same purposes. Personally, I'd be making all the Pzkw I's as Pzlw II's, due to paint scheme used on the Pzkw I in the FMB. Anything in panzer grey will show up like the proverbial "dogs balls", even on a winter map. Actually, you'll probably find that those Pzkw II's are really the "L or Lynx" version (not in the game). Normally the same armament (though have seen otherwise with a 50mm gun) and different suspension.
PzJg means tank destroyer, so these will mainly mean Marders for you. We don't have any Nashorns in the game and is too early for the inclusion of Hetzers and Jagdpanthers. You could include Ferdinands (Elephants). Some were still in Russia, whilst others were used in Italy. As you'd appreciate, they were scarce and out of production. The StuG's are predominantly the StuG IIIG with the 75mm gun. (we don't have the 105mm version) and is crewed by infantry personnel. That is, with the infantry rather than the armoured units. This arrangement somewhat changed later on in the war, when non-turreted AFV's were used in lieu of turreted tanks. Was cheaper to produce and didn't matter as much when fighting defensive battles.
Finally, the Pzkw III versions equipped with the short 75mm gun (from the early Pzkw IV's) were sometimes included in Tiger tank battalions as an artillery component. The 50mm gun versions had become obsolete as gun tanks, though am sure that a number would still be around for use in the role.
Regards,
Warg
Just a note following our earlier discussion on TS3. As Faustnic mentioned, those Pzkw I's are probably Bef HQ vehicles, though I'd guess that the Germans might be using outmoded Pzkw III's with dummy main gun armament for the same purposes. Personally, I'd be making all the Pzkw I's as Pzlw II's, due to paint scheme used on the Pzkw I in the FMB. Anything in panzer grey will show up like the proverbial "dogs balls", even on a winter map. Actually, you'll probably find that those Pzkw II's are really the "L or Lynx" version (not in the game). Normally the same armament (though have seen otherwise with a 50mm gun) and different suspension.
PzJg means tank destroyer, so these will mainly mean Marders for you. We don't have any Nashorns in the game and is too early for the inclusion of Hetzers and Jagdpanthers. You could include Ferdinands (Elephants). Some were still in Russia, whilst others were used in Italy. As you'd appreciate, they were scarce and out of production. The StuG's are predominantly the StuG IIIG with the 75mm gun. (we don't have the 105mm version) and is crewed by infantry personnel. That is, with the infantry rather than the armoured units. This arrangement somewhat changed later on in the war, when non-turreted AFV's were used in lieu of turreted tanks. Was cheaper to produce and didn't matter as much when fighting defensive battles.
Finally, the Pzkw III versions equipped with the short 75mm gun (from the early Pzkw IV's) were sometimes included in Tiger tank battalions as an artillery component. The 50mm gun versions had become obsolete as gun tanks, though am sure that a number would still be around for use in the role.
Regards,
Warg
IV/JG7_Warg
Knight of the Order of the Golden Pelican
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Knight of the Order of the Golden Pelican
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II/JG54_Emil
- Posts: 418
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One more thing to think about PzBefs:
All panzer types were used as PzBef./Command Pz. over the years.
The later in the war heavier the PzBef became, as you see below:
In December 1943, I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.)
It does make sense to use heavier tanks as command tanks instead of weak armored tanks for the head of the unit.
The faster and lighter tanks(PzI+II) were used for recon purposes.
All panzer types were used as PzBef./Command Pz. over the years.
The later in the war heavier the PzBef became, as you see below:
In December 1943, I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.)
on 20.12.1943:Ist-Gliederung Pz.Rgt. 1 Stand 1.12.1943
Stab u. Stbs.Kp. Pz.Rgt. 1
mit Nachr.Zug (2 Bef.Pz. III) und Aufkl.Zug (4 Pz. IV)
Stab u. Stbs.Kp. I./Pz.Rgt. 1
mit Nachr.Zug (2 Bef.Pz. V), Aufkl.Zug (6 Pz. V), Pi.Zug, Erk.Zug., Fla-Zug
1. Kp. (16 Pz. V)
2. Kp. (15 Pz. V)
3. Kp. (17 Pz. V)
4. Kp. (16 Pz. V)
Pz.Werkst.Zug I
Stb. u. Stbs.Kp. II./Pz.Rgt. 1
mit Nachr.Zug (2 Bef.Pz. III), Aufkl.Zug (5 Pz. IV), Flamm-Zug (6 Fl.Pz. III), Erk.Zug.
5. Kp. (20 Pz. IV)
6. Kp. (19 Pz. IV)
7. Kp. (18 Pz. IV)
8. Kp. (19 Pz. IV)
Pz.Werkst.Zug II
Of the total 71 Panthers and 2 Befehlspanthers in I. Abt., 23 are combat ready and 50 in shortterm repair (up to 3 weeks).
http://www.panther1944.de/en/sdkfz-171- ... rgt-1.html47 Panthers (12 combat ready), 3 Befehlspanthers (1 combat ready), 2 Bergepanther (2 combat ready). Seit 1.12.1943 6 dead losses, 15 Panthers transported for home overhaul.
It does make sense to use heavier tanks as command tanks instead of weak armored tanks for the head of the unit.
The faster and lighter tanks(PzI+II) were used for recon purposes.
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II/JG54_Emil
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This website contains some very good and very important data for the OrBat:
http://www.panther1944.de/en/sdkfz-171- ... rgt-1.html
while only 23 Panthers are combat ready in December 1943, I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.)
On 26.12.1943, 22 of the repaired Pz.Kpfw. V Panther, were started to be delivered to the regiment.
For the campaign this means, there is a big breakdownrate or big reserves.
http://www.panther1944.de/en/sdkfz-171- ... rgt-1.html
while only 23 Panthers are combat ready in December 1943, I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.)
On 26.12.1943, 22 of the repaired Pz.Kpfw. V Panther, were started to be delivered to the regiment.
For the campaign this means, there is a big breakdownrate or big reserves.
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IV/JG7_Warg
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- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:02 am
I wouldn't say that using a heavier tank as a command tank is making the most effective use of that type of vehicle. The heavier armoured vehicle, which usually had a more potent weapon is much more effective in the gun line. A headquarters tank (or Bef vehicle) had enhanced radios communication gear and wasn't usually equipped to engage in direct combat. That's not its role. As such, the tank would normally be towards the rear of the main battle tanks and hold back from being engaged in the main action. Additionally, the inclusion of enhanced communications gear came at the expense of other things, such as armament and ammunition. (it takes up limited spaced) To me, using a 57 tonne Tiger hull for this purpose is overkill. The Tiger has more value as a gun tank and the Germans had few to spare.
What was happening on the battlefield, was that key Bef vehicles were being identified on the battlefield and being selectively targeted. The Pzkw I Bef, was such a target, not disguised, with thin armour and armed with just a machine gun. Pzkw 38t's were also used early on, but later, a number of obsolete Pzkw III were adapted to be command tanks. The main armament was removed and a dummy barrel was put in its place to mask its real role. The Allies did the same and I've occasionally read reports where the Germans specifically targeted T34's with two aerials, as this marked them as communication vehicles.
What was happening on the battlefield, was that key Bef vehicles were being identified on the battlefield and being selectively targeted. The Pzkw I Bef, was such a target, not disguised, with thin armour and armed with just a machine gun. Pzkw 38t's were also used early on, but later, a number of obsolete Pzkw III were adapted to be command tanks. The main armament was removed and a dummy barrel was put in its place to mask its real role. The Allies did the same and I've occasionally read reports where the Germans specifically targeted T34's with two aerials, as this marked them as communication vehicles.
IV/JG7_Warg
Knight of the Order of the Golden Pelican
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HSFX Goodwill Ambassador
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von Paulus and the Crickets
Knight of the Order of the Golden Pelican
Blitz buzzard over Valletta
Swiper of the Slot
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Founding Director of Simian Solutions
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von Paulus and the Crickets
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IV/JG7_4Shades
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II/JG54_Emil
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I went through the Order of Battle again and noticed a few things, that may matter or not.
-There are 5 Infantry Divisions, 1 Cavalry Regiment and 1 Artillery Division are apparently missing from the 4.Panzerarmee 26.12.1943.
VII.AK (Belaya) 88.ID, 198.ID
XIII.AK (Zhitomir) Kav.Reg."Süd"
XXIV.PzK (East of Belaya Tserkov) 82.ID, 34.ID, 112.ID
under direct order of the 4. Army: 18.Art.Div.
-Don´t know if this will make any difference for the campaign.
-Also the number s of infantry is at around a 1/10 of the historical numbers.
One more thing to consider is to make use in parts of the presence of the 1.Panzerarmee and the 8. Armee available south of the battle area.
Kriegsgliederung der 4.Panzerarmee: Stand 26.12.1943
LIX.AK (Korosten) General der Infanterie Kurt von der Chevallerie
7.PzD (Oberst Adalbert Schultz) 800-1400 men 1 x PzIII, 12 x PzIV, 7 x PzJg
291.ID (Generalleutnant Werner Goeritz) 1900-3000 men
Korps-Abt.C (Generalleutnant Wolfgang Lange) 1300-2400 men
Arko 103
VII.AK (Belaya)
88.ID
75.ID
198.ID
Arko 124
XIII.AK (Zhitomir) General der Infanterie Arthur Hauffe
213.Sich.Div. (Generalleutnant Alex Goeschen) 600-900 men
340.ID (Oberst Werner Ehrig) 1200-2100 men
Kav.Reg."Süd"
208.ID (Generalmajor Hans Piekenbrock) 700-1400 men
68.ID (Oberst Paul Scheuerpflug) 900-1900 men
Arko 139
XXXXII.AK (Kornin) General der Infanterie Franz Mattenklot
25.PzD (Generalmajor Hans Troeger) 2800-4900 men 8 x PzIII, 43 x PzIV, 7 x StuG
XXXXVIII.PzK (Zhitomir) General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck
1.PzD (Generalmajor Richard Koll) 2700-4600 men 3 x PzII, 5 x PzIII, 22 x PzIV, 12 x PzV, 12 PzJg
8.PzD (Generalmajor Gottfried Froelich) 1300-2400 men 3 x PzII, 2 x PzIII, 27 x PzIV, 5 x PzJg
1.SS-PzD "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (SS Brigade-Fuehrer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS Theodor Wisch) 2200-3700 men 2 x PzI, 3 x PzII, 3 x PzIII, 10 x PzIV, 6 x PzV, 3 x PzVI, 17 x StuG, 4 x PzJg
19.PzD (Generalmajor Hans Kaellner) 600-1300 men 2 x PzIII, 14 x PzIV, 8 x PzJg
2.SS-PzD "Das Reich" (SS Oberfuehrer Heinz Lammerding) 800-1200 men 15 x PzIV, 10 x PzV, 4 x PzVI, 10 x StuG
Arko 108
XXIV.PzK (East of Belaya Tserkov)
82.ID
34.ID
112.ID
Arko 143
454.Sich.Div. (Korosten) (Generalleutnant Helmuth Koch) 800-1400 men
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
20.PzGrD (Generalleutnant Georg Jauer) 500-1000 men 1 x PzIII, 10 x StuG, 5 x PzJg
18.Art.Div.
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/4%20pz%20a.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Reserve Units according to Kriegsgliederung der 4.Panzerarmee: Stand 01.01.1944
LIX.AK
147.Res.Div. (Generalleutnant Otto Matterstock) 1500? men
XXIV.PzK
168.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
SS-Ka.Gru.Lang
Kriegsgliederung der 1.Panzerarmee: Stand 26.12.1943
XXIX.AK
2/3rd 335.ID (General Hans von Obstfelder)
97.Jg.Div., 9.ID,
9.ID
Arko 102
IV.AK (General Friedrich Mieth)
17.ID
111.ID
258.ID
79.ID
1/3rd 335.ID
3.Geb.Div.
24.PzD
302.ID
Arko 144
XVII.AK (General der Gebirgstruppen Hans Kreysing)
1/3rd 294.ID
123.ID
125.ID
Arko 7
XXX.AK (General der Artillerie Maximilian Fretter-Pico)
304.ID
46.ID
257.ID
387.ID
306.ID
16.PzGrD
Arko 110
LVII.PzK (Dnjepr) (General Hans-Karl Freiherr von Esebeck)
PzGrD "Großdeutschland"
9.PzD
15.ID
62.ID
23.PzD
3.SS-PzD "Totenkopf"
1/3rd der 294. ID
Arko 121
Gr.Sperl: (Generalmajor Rudolf Sperl)
9.PzD
15.ID
Arko 121
Gr.Schwerin (Gen.Lt. Gerhard Graf von Schwerin)
306.ID
16.PzGrD
LII.AK (Jassy) (General Erich Buschenhagen)
384.ID
76.ID
parts 3.SS-PzD "Totenkopf"
17.PzD
13.PzD
2.FjD
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
Korps-Abt.A
http://www.strategie.net.pl/viewtopic.p ... 9&start=15
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Kriegsgliederung der 8.Armee: Stand 26.12.1943 (General der Infanterie Otto Wöhler)
III.PzK (General der Infanterie Friedrich Schulz)
3.Pz.Div.
376.ID
11.Pz.Div.
14.Pz.Div.
10.Pz.Gren.Div.
6.Pz.Div.
XI.AK (General der Artillerie Wilhelm Stemmermann)
5.SS-Freiw.Sturm-Brig."Wallonien"
5.SS-Pz.Div."Wiking"
72.ID
57.ID
parts 167.ID
XXXXVII.PzK (General der Panzertruppen Nikolaus von Vormann)
389.ID
320.ID
106.ID
282.ID
parts 167.ID
8.SS-Kav.Div.
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
444.Sich.Div.
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/8%20armee%20(II).htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
-There are 5 Infantry Divisions, 1 Cavalry Regiment and 1 Artillery Division are apparently missing from the 4.Panzerarmee 26.12.1943.
VII.AK (Belaya) 88.ID, 198.ID
XIII.AK (Zhitomir) Kav.Reg."Süd"
XXIV.PzK (East of Belaya Tserkov) 82.ID, 34.ID, 112.ID
under direct order of the 4. Army: 18.Art.Div.
-Don´t know if this will make any difference for the campaign.
-Also the number s of infantry is at around a 1/10 of the historical numbers.
One more thing to consider is to make use in parts of the presence of the 1.Panzerarmee and the 8. Armee available south of the battle area.
Kriegsgliederung der 4.Panzerarmee: Stand 26.12.1943
LIX.AK (Korosten) General der Infanterie Kurt von der Chevallerie
7.PzD (Oberst Adalbert Schultz) 800-1400 men 1 x PzIII, 12 x PzIV, 7 x PzJg
291.ID (Generalleutnant Werner Goeritz) 1900-3000 men
Korps-Abt.C (Generalleutnant Wolfgang Lange) 1300-2400 men
Arko 103
VII.AK (Belaya)
88.ID
75.ID
198.ID
Arko 124
XIII.AK (Zhitomir) General der Infanterie Arthur Hauffe
213.Sich.Div. (Generalleutnant Alex Goeschen) 600-900 men
340.ID (Oberst Werner Ehrig) 1200-2100 men
Kav.Reg."Süd"
208.ID (Generalmajor Hans Piekenbrock) 700-1400 men
68.ID (Oberst Paul Scheuerpflug) 900-1900 men
Arko 139
XXXXII.AK (Kornin) General der Infanterie Franz Mattenklot
25.PzD (Generalmajor Hans Troeger) 2800-4900 men 8 x PzIII, 43 x PzIV, 7 x StuG
XXXXVIII.PzK (Zhitomir) General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck
1.PzD (Generalmajor Richard Koll) 2700-4600 men 3 x PzII, 5 x PzIII, 22 x PzIV, 12 x PzV, 12 PzJg
8.PzD (Generalmajor Gottfried Froelich) 1300-2400 men 3 x PzII, 2 x PzIII, 27 x PzIV, 5 x PzJg
1.SS-PzD "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (SS Brigade-Fuehrer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS Theodor Wisch) 2200-3700 men 2 x PzI, 3 x PzII, 3 x PzIII, 10 x PzIV, 6 x PzV, 3 x PzVI, 17 x StuG, 4 x PzJg
19.PzD (Generalmajor Hans Kaellner) 600-1300 men 2 x PzIII, 14 x PzIV, 8 x PzJg
2.SS-PzD "Das Reich" (SS Oberfuehrer Heinz Lammerding) 800-1200 men 15 x PzIV, 10 x PzV, 4 x PzVI, 10 x StuG
Arko 108
XXIV.PzK (East of Belaya Tserkov)
82.ID
34.ID
112.ID
Arko 143
454.Sich.Div. (Korosten) (Generalleutnant Helmuth Koch) 800-1400 men
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
20.PzGrD (Generalleutnant Georg Jauer) 500-1000 men 1 x PzIII, 10 x StuG, 5 x PzJg
18.Art.Div.
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/4%20pz%20a.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Reserve Units according to Kriegsgliederung der 4.Panzerarmee: Stand 01.01.1944
LIX.AK
147.Res.Div. (Generalleutnant Otto Matterstock) 1500? men
XXIV.PzK
168.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
SS-Ka.Gru.Lang
Kriegsgliederung der 1.Panzerarmee: Stand 26.12.1943
XXIX.AK
2/3rd 335.ID (General Hans von Obstfelder)
97.Jg.Div., 9.ID,
9.ID
Arko 102
IV.AK (General Friedrich Mieth)
17.ID
111.ID
258.ID
79.ID
1/3rd 335.ID
3.Geb.Div.
24.PzD
302.ID
Arko 144
XVII.AK (General der Gebirgstruppen Hans Kreysing)
1/3rd 294.ID
123.ID
125.ID
Arko 7
XXX.AK (General der Artillerie Maximilian Fretter-Pico)
304.ID
46.ID
257.ID
387.ID
306.ID
16.PzGrD
Arko 110
LVII.PzK (Dnjepr) (General Hans-Karl Freiherr von Esebeck)
PzGrD "Großdeutschland"
9.PzD
15.ID
62.ID
23.PzD
3.SS-PzD "Totenkopf"
1/3rd der 294. ID
Arko 121
Gr.Sperl: (Generalmajor Rudolf Sperl)
9.PzD
15.ID
Arko 121
Gr.Schwerin (Gen.Lt. Gerhard Graf von Schwerin)
306.ID
16.PzGrD
LII.AK (Jassy) (General Erich Buschenhagen)
384.ID
76.ID
parts 3.SS-PzD "Totenkopf"
17.PzD
13.PzD
2.FjD
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
Korps-Abt.A
http://www.strategie.net.pl/viewtopic.p ... 9&start=15
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Kriegsgliederung der 8.Armee: Stand 26.12.1943 (General der Infanterie Otto Wöhler)
III.PzK (General der Infanterie Friedrich Schulz)
3.Pz.Div.
376.ID
11.Pz.Div.
14.Pz.Div.
10.Pz.Gren.Div.
6.Pz.Div.
XI.AK (General der Artillerie Wilhelm Stemmermann)
5.SS-Freiw.Sturm-Brig."Wallonien"
5.SS-Pz.Div."Wiking"
72.ID
57.ID
parts 167.ID
XXXXVII.PzK (General der Panzertruppen Nikolaus von Vormann)
389.ID
320.ID
106.ID
282.ID
parts 167.ID
8.SS-Kav.Div.
der Armee direkt unterstellt:
444.Sich.Div.
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/8%20armee%20(II).htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Last edited by II/JG54_Emil on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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IV/JG7_4Shades
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You are correct Emil, the 4.PzAOK orbat I listed showed only those divisions committed in the front line near KZBK, and ignored the sector eastwards from Kazatin. Some of the others you mention were located on the southern arm of the front extending east to the Dnepr, or were held in reserve at that date. The 18 Artillery started near Belaya Cerkov and was transferred to near Berdichev a little later, etc.
According to Barratt's book, the front line strength of most of the German divisions at the time was 25% or less, sometimes much less. It is astounding that the German army kept fighting in a reasonably coherent formation when faced with such opposition. Of course, they did fall back quickly and were fragmented after a week or so, but they retained command structure and organized reinforcements etc, which is a monumental effort in discipline considering the imbalance in strength. Of course, it was all in vain, eventually.
Cheers,
4S
According to Barratt's book, the front line strength of most of the German divisions at the time was 25% or less, sometimes much less. It is astounding that the German army kept fighting in a reasonably coherent formation when faced with such opposition. Of course, they did fall back quickly and were fragmented after a week or so, but they retained command structure and organized reinforcements etc, which is a monumental effort in discipline considering the imbalance in strength. Of course, it was all in vain, eventually.
Cheers,
4S
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