Heavy Flak Weapons

[IV/JG7_Warg]

G'day,

In positioning my units upon the template, like many of the Axis WW2 commanders, I have historically used the 88mm Flak unit as a "keystone" to my defence. Upon review of the guns capabilities in the technics file, I note that it has a "+3 pitch" notation added to a field and that the "fire at fast moving target" remains blank. I.e. not ticked. Can I take this to mean that the 88mm Flak 18 cannot fire at ground or aerial targets? Neither seems right and makes the issue of this weapon, quite pointless in this scenario.

Without the distinction made between "AP" and "HE" shells in the game, I do agree that the lighter calibre AAA guns firing at ground targets is a problem in this game. This is mainly due to the 20, 25, 37 & 40mm AAA calibre guns with automatic firing rates, registering in the hundreds of rounds per minute. Unfortunately, each shell be treated as "armour piercing" in this game, rather than as a high explosive warhead. So I do concede the problem in this quarter. Really, the ammunition used by light AAA pieces in the anti-aircraft role was designed to chew up light metals as used in aircraft, but generally useless against tanks and armoured vehicles.

This is not generally the case with the 88mm Flak 18 however. Since the Spanish Civil War, it was a common practice to subordinate these guns from the Luftwaffe to the Army. It was an issue for Luftwaffe commanders, as at some stage, they would want these valued weapons back from the Army. There are numerous incidents or events where the 88mm Flak 18 was used to destroy ground targets and I'm sure, I don't need to illustrate this to the forum. Nor does the 88mm Flak 18 fire at the rate of hundreds of rounds per minute. Just 15 to 20 rounds per minute like most other field pieces. Also, the 88mm Flak 18 was issued with ammunition to destroy tanks, particularly so, when assigned to front line areas, as in this campaign. Now you may be thinking to argue or say that we have the 88mm Pak43 for the anti-tank role. I'll just say that this gun was developed later in the war and largely because the earlier 88mm Flak 18 presented itself as a large target on the battlefield and was often targeted by long range high explosive fire.

This is what I suggest. Keep the "+3 pitch" on the lighter automatic weapons to prevent them firing at ground targets. Remove the "+3 pitch" from the larger AAA weapons like the 88mm Flak 18, which have much, much slower firing rate. But I'd also be looking further into the techniks file and putting a figure in that field for ammunition usage for the heavy calibre weapons, like has been done for the tanks. Do this, otherwise, it was pointless to have an 88mm Flak 18 on the battlefield and I just can't picture the troops not using this gun against advancing Soviet armour.


Regards,
Warg

[II/JG3K.Brandle]

Maybe consider using the Japan large flak gun as the anti air and the German large flak gun as the anti tank weapon¿

[Petr]

Or create a new 88 with different settings in the Technics & stationary & add to SEOW DB. Should work too.

[II/JG54_Emil]

G'day,

In positioning my units upon the template, like many of the Axis WW2 commanders, I have historically used the 88mm Flak unit as a "keystone" to my defence. Upon review of the guns capabilities in the technics file, I note that it has a "+3 pitch" notation added to a field and that the "fire at fast moving target" remains blank. I.e. not ticked. Can I take this to mean that the 88mm Flak 18 cannot fire at ground or aerial targets? Neither seems right and makes the issue of this weapon, quite pointless in this scenario.

You can take this as firing at targets above 3°, including aircraft.

[IV/JG7_Warg]

II/JG54_Emil


You can take this as firing at targets above 3°, including aircraft.

Do the targets above 3° include ground targets, such as tanks, vehicles, artillery, etc. ?

If I had to choose which application to use the 88mm Flak 18 in this campaign, then it will have to be for its anti-tank role. After all, it's what its best remembered and renowned for.

As I've indicated earlier, its not the relatively slow firing heavy weapons that is an issue, but the fast firing, automatic, cannon weapons which cause problems in templates. It's these weapons which should be addressed and not weapons like the 88mm Flak 18.

From what I recall of the kill table in the techniks file, its not so much as based upon armour penetration calculations, but upon registering a certain number of hits from particular calibres of weapons. And in this aspect, is where is the heart of the problem lies. For no matter how well a tank is armoured, if its getting hit by hundreds of light AAA rounds due to automatic fire, then kill table in the techniks file will eventually register it as a kill due to number of hits chalked up, rather than any armour penetration ability of the round fired.


Regards,
Warg

[Petr]

AT guns can't rotate 360° and if editted in the technics to 360° the gun will not be loaded and can't be selected in the full mission builder (and it will be removed from the mission).

As you say, the flexibility of the 88 AAA gun is what makes it much more valuable than a standard AT gun which will not rotate to save its life.

Once again I'll mention, probably to no good use, you can create multiple instances of the same gun in the technics (with different stats) to tailer your needs. It will be the same object (skin etc...) in the mission but will have different properties so you can easily have a 88mm for flak (elevation 3° or more) and an 88mm with no elevation restrictions but strongly reduced ranges for ground work. 3-4km seems about right, further than that they won't hit shit and will just hog the server with their high rate of fire.

[LW/JG10_Luny]

Sorry, tried to edit my post between Warg's and Petr's but deleted accidentally.

[IV/JG7_Warg]

Petr
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:18 am Post subject:
AT guns can't rotate 360° and if editted in the technics to 360° the gun will not be loaded and can't be selected in the full mission builder (and it will be removed from the mission).

As you say, the flexibility of the 88 AAA gun is what makes it much more valuable than a standard AT gun which will not rotate to save its life.

Once again I'll mention, probably to no good use, you can create multiple instances of the same gun in the technics (with different stats) to tailer your needs. It will be the same object (skin etc...) in the mission but will have different properties so you can easily have a 88mm for flak (elevation 3° or more) and an 88mm with no elevation restrictions but strongly reduced ranges for ground work. 3-4km seems about right, further than that they won't hit shit and will just hog the server with their high rate of fire.

Yes Petr, I understood the import of what you posted earlier and am fully aware of the limitations of standard AT gun mountings. It has been often discussed on Teamspeak for an age now. No need for the "probably to no good use" comment. As noted, the differences in range between firing at an aerial target and a ground target is a problem. It does prohibit the use of one unit to do both roles.

Under these circumstances, then yes, two types of 88mm Flak 18 are required. It could reasonably be argued that those 88mm Flak 18's residing in the front line, would have been issued with the appropriate ammunition for anti-tank and ground attack roles. At least guns in this role would not be signalling their presence to roving aircraft. Meanwhile, those 88mm Flak 18 batteries, well to the rear defending bridges, building, industry, etc. from air attack would likewise be appropriately equipped.

Regards,
Warg

[II/JG54_Emil]

Do the targets above 3° include ground targets, such as tanks, vehicles, artillery, etc. ?

Yes if they come down a mountain i.e..



As Petr says, creating an AT version of the 88 is possible.

I wonder if it is possible for SEOW to treat 2 different 88 that are stacked into each other as one model.

If yes, then heureka.

The PanzerBodyFront 0.00532 is very little and with 5.32mm (spaced armour) a softtarget.
One should be able to kill 2x 88 stacked into each other with any MG with one pass.

The effective range should be around 3500m.
The hit propability at 3500m is at 51% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Pak_43

If doable, I think it´s a good idea.