seowhq.net

Posted: **Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:47 pm**

Bewegungskrieg

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:03 am**

IV/JG7_4Shades wrote:
If we want to use SEOW to set up battles/skirmishes that are resolved by using a detailed FPS, e.g. ARMA, then we can do this too. Just takes a little more work to generate ARMA maps/missions from SEOW campaigns.

Cheers,
4S

I've always thought of this as an interesting alternate way to determine the control of a control point. If during the last campaign Red or Blue wanted to declare an Assault on a control point, then the map could be constructed based on the units in a certain square kilometer range. And of course, it should be a "dead is dead" type simulation.

Interesting to see the developments on the unit firing ranges too.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:05 pm**

Now some data for field artillery:

ZIS-3 (76.2 mm): 4000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 4000 m
PaK40 (75 mm): 3990 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 3990 m
PaK38 (50 mm): 2999 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 2999 m
M5 (75 mm): 4000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 4000 m
ML-20 (152 mm): 14000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 20000 m) .................. effective at 14000 m
sFH18 (150 mm): 13250 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 20000 m) .................. effective at 13250 m

Coastal guns:

CoastBunker_ETO2 (15") 25000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 30000 m) .................. ineffective at all ranges, shooting ~ 16% short
CoastBunker_PTO (135 mm) 10000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 30000 m) .................. ineffective at all ranges, shooting out to 200 m

Posted: **Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:26 am**

The coastal guns figures are eye opening.

Posted: **Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:00 pm**

IV/JG7_4Shades wrote:Now some data for field artillery:

ZIS-3 (76.2 mm): 4000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 4000 m
PaK40 (75 mm): 3990 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 3990 m
PaK38 (50 mm): 2999 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 2999 m
M5 (75 mm): 4000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 15000 m) .................. effective at 4000 m
ML-20 (152 mm): 14000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 20000 m) .................. effective at 14000 m
sFH18 (150 mm): 13250 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 20000 m) .................. effective at 13250 m

Coastal guns:

CoastBunker_ETO2 (15") 25000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 30000 m) .................. ineffective at all ranges, shooting ~ 16% short
CoastBunker_PTO (135 mm) 10000 m ...... (technics AttackMaxDistance set to 30000 m) .................. ineffective at all ranges, shooting out to 200 m

I don´t know if you wonder or if you just want to make a point.
The max distances for cannons are set in by the CannonTankGeneric.class, the CannonMidrangeGeneric.class or the CannonLongrangeGeneric.class.
One of those three java classes is adressed in the individual weaponsclass code like below

Midrange Guns:

Code: Select all

public class CannonM5_75mm extends CannonMidrangeGeneric
public class CannonPaK38 extends CannonMidrangeGeneric
public class CannonM5_75mm extends CannonMidrangeGeneric
public class CannonML20 extends CannonMidrangeGeneric
public class CannonHowitzer_150mm extends CannonMidrangeGeneric

Long range guns:

Code: Select all

public class CannonMarkVII_356mm extends CannonLongrangeGeneric
public class CannonUS_5_38Mk12 extends CannonAntiAirGeneric

For CannonTankGeneric.class the maximum Range is 3000m:

Code: Select all

        gunproperties.aimMaxDist = 3000F;

For CannonMidrangeGeneric.class the maximum Range is5000m:

Code: Select all

        gunproperties.aimMaxDist = 5000F;

For CannonLongrangeGeneric.class the maximum Range is 25000m:

Code: Select all

        gunproperties.aimMaxDist = 25000F;

Posted: **Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:44 pm**

Thanks Emil, I didn't know that. I don't have decompiled java for IL2.

Even so, the performance I am seeing in-game doesn't always match the parameters you identify above. This could be java errors in the particular weapons classes etc. Together we are understanding more about this!

Cheers,
4S

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:37 am**

I can try to decompile the 4.12 classes for you today.

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:08 am**

Just did some post-Korosten statistics on gun kill ranges. The following data considers only cases where a stationary object scored a "destroyed by" event during the campaign.

Object "# Kills" "Min Kill" "Ave Kill" "Max Kill" "Technics Max Dist"
ATG38_45mm 1 1451 1451 1451 1500
PaK38 2 1082 1275 1467 1630
PaK40 22 315 981 1418 1650
ZIS3 3 94 549 1378 1500
KV1 39 312 730 1063 1380
PzIIIN 9 250 414 565 880
PzIVJ 54 228 916 1549 1660
PzVA 84 428 1169 1879 1840
T34 30 462 959 1318 1386
T70M 12 607 800 1039 1200
BA_10 4 499 711 1279 1527
BA_64 2 135 205 275 535
AxisInfantry 62 27 100 254 400
RusInfantry 16 62 169 322 400

So we now know that these objects can be lethal against targets up to their technics max distance, well beyond stock ranges.

Posted: **Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:41 pm**

And here is some information on what stationary units killed tanks in the combined Korosten & Zhitomir scenarios, and at what ranges. Excluded are tank kills by moving objects (chiefs, aircraft). Max gun ranges were set in the Korosten Mod technics file.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:30 am**

This is a very interesting study.
Hopefully it will lead to designers being able to manipulate these values to suit their
campaign design needs.

Sorry I didn't notice it earlier.

Kopf

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:30 am**

Kopfdorfer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:30 am This is a very interesting study.

hi all

Kopf & I are kinda re-visiting this territory, tho' more in the realm of naval gun ranges for the moment (coastal guns also a subject of mirth between us *grin*).

Very interested in any opinion on the Bofors 10" fitted to Finnish flak ships (CannonMarkVI_254mm) which seems overly limited in range to me - I'm new to hacking on ships.ini/technics.ini settings but my efforts to affect seem this to have been in vain & I'm unable to track down the definition for this gun.

Any advice very welcome 8~)

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:28 am**

Hi Emmett,
Sorry that it has taken so long to reply, I have been a little distracted. It is always best to be specific; please tell me the exact ship objects that you are referring to.

In general technics.ini and ships.ini editing is usually a matter of changing one thing at a time, then starting HSFX, making sure it boots, then making sure the edit hasn't affected FMB, then seeing how the object in question behaves in a test mission, then close HSFX, and start the cycle again. This is laborious but necessary, since you cannot assume that HSFX will accept your "perfectly reasonable" edits. You need to validate!

Of course if you decompile HSFX into its java classes then you can read the code and things become quicker...

Cheers
4S

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:58 am**

All good mate, 'n' ta for the response!

I'd been looking at the main turrets on the Finnish flak ships, Ilmarinen & Vainamoinen; couldn't figure out why they should be limited so harshly, NavWeaps.org suggests a max. range over 30 000m but ships.ini (for all 4.12.2-based versions I've seen) has it set to 13 530 & I couldn't seem to increase that.

Bludgeoned my way thru hacking on the classfile for the gun, initial testing seems to confirm that the turrets are trained and firing from the 30k I tried to set it to - now just need to decide an appropriate 'effective' range & trim it down via ships.ini.

As for the coastal guns.. your testing certainly confirms what both Kopf & I have seen & discussed, they couldn't hit a cow's @rse with a banjo; I'm guessing there's something in the classfiles that determines/drives the accuracy (or lack of) but that looks like way too big a rabbit-hole right now!

cheers

emmett

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 am**

The other thing that you need to consider is the ship "targeting" code of IL-2. It does not work the way you might think, i.e. ballistic ranging, straddling, then fire for effect. Instead it appears to have a very random/probabilistic nature, so over a reasonable amount of time there will be a certain number of hits.

I am saying this so that you don't expect that simply copying in different gun range and dispersion parameters will necessarily achieve a historically sensible result for a selection of weapons. Historical data is just the starting point for tweaking. Anyway, you sound as though you know what you are doing, so good luck!

Fixing the coastal guns would be great, but so would fixing the propensity for heavy ships to sweep clean all land based units within range! (another big rabbit hole)

Cheers,
4S

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:30 pm**

IV/JG7_4Shades wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 am I am saying this so that you don't expect that simply copying in different gun range and dispersion parameters will necessarily achieve a historically sensible result for a selection of weapons. Historical data is just the starting point for tweaking.

Understood, & thnx again; unlikely I'll ever get clueful enough for that kind of detail, it was more about the disparity 'tween the 10" Bofors range in-game and other weapons of similar calibre.

The heavy ship 'clear-felling' would prob'ly be funny if it weren't kinda tragic too, but maybe if those 15" coastals got a kick up the proverbial then you'd think twice before getting yr ships that close.. *grin*

~S!~

emmett

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