[INFO] Bombing techniques

LW/JG10_Luny · Post by **LW/JG10_Luny** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:37 am

That's a good show!

And as guests in a public forum makes it a little embarrassing (as the softest word I could find).

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:55 am

102nd-YU-devill wrote:But if you dive from 4000m down to 20m and then LEVEL out at 20m and drop your bombs, that is not OK.

Again wrong.
The plane was not leveled out at bombdrop, or else I wouldn´t have hit the deck but the side of the ship at the speed of 550-600km/h.

By the way it not easy to be done and requires a fair amount of practice.

6S.Maraz · Post by **6S.Maraz** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:14 am

Skip bombing = the bomb skips on the water's surface and hits the ship (generally the ship's side). This attack is done with the aircraft in level flight and does not require much timing because the bomb will skip and hit the ship, whatever the distance/height/speed (within certain broad limits).

This attack techinque is not veru realistic, because bomb penetration in the warship's armour is not modelled. In real life, a skip bombing attack against any warship than a light destroyer would cause the bomb to bounce and not penetrate.

Also skipping is rather "millimetric" in IL-2, there is no effect modelled on waves, etc. that could give unforeseen trajectory to the bomb.

For this reason it was wise to exclude skip bombing from the campaign.

Instead the attack profile we saw in last mission is not skip bombing, even it's just a 20° dive, you have to time the drop very well to hit the ship. So it requires much skill from the pilot and is a fair approach.

Now we have in game:
- realistic fuzing, implemented by researching fuzes that were historically available for eeach aitr force (Mirko should know that)
- realistic G load (so you cannot do unrealistic dive/recover manoeuvres, the Ju.88 was one of the plane most penalized by these new limits, now a very steep dive with JU88 will not allow recovery below some altitude)

So I think that all other attack profiles, that do not involve the bomb skipping on water's surface, are enough realistic and should be allowed. Putting limits on aircraft altitude, dive angle, etc. would be rather unrealistic and very difficult to achieve, both for pilots and for those who have to check the outcome of the mission.

Please Devill, consider that the Axis players are now sinking some ships, but on ground it is a really veruy difficult campaign to win. We will hopefully have some paratroopers dropped on Crete, but they will have no heavy weapons, and will be subject to pounding from air forces from nearby airports without any opposition for at least 20 minutes at mission start and 20 minutes at mission end. The airports are protected also by entrenched AAA that is very difficult to eliminate, and will pouns the ground troops as well.

So, although the campaign is a bit harsh on the sea for tha Allies, there is still a very high probability that it will end as a total Allied victory, because the needed control points in Crete will never be captured by Axis forces.

So my opinion is that we should leave the campaign develop as it is now and enjoy the missions we have to fly, that are rather varied and interesting.

Maraz

102nd-YU-devill · Post by **102nd-YU-devill** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:30 am

Ok Maraz,

from your post I can deduce that you have fears about the balance of the campaign, and therefore think these kinds of attacks are ok.

I took it upon myself to design it and to gauge the balance and I am the only one currently who is in the best position to do it.

But I see that you doubt my capability to do that or my possible bias towards one side. This is why you support Emil.

In this case, I would say that I can't admin this campaign anymore since you don't trust my judgement on what is necessary for it.

Please find another impartial admin (maybe Emil) or don't expect a mission next Thursday.

Cheers!

Cipson · Post by **Cipson** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:03 am

Such an attitude towards Maraz, one of the most respected people in our Community, considerations of which are always very balanced, disinterested and competent, it is really out of place.

No further comments...

=VARP=Thor · Post by **=VARP=Thor** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:12 am

@Devill
How can you even think to get rid of your "baby"? It would not be fair!

@all
My opinion is that we better make the rules asap to any direction,and live with it to end no matter who win or lose. It is just a begining of campaign and let's say that this are "child diseases". It is better to do changes now than later. I really don't like to see changes of rules in the middle of war ie. not enough planes,to expensive,to much wind or poor visability. Let's agree about the rules and please don't change it. Ever.

102nd-YU-devill · Post by **102nd-YU-devill** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:18 am

What is really out of place Cipson is you not explaining to others that I was telling the truth.

Both you and Maraz can attest to this, yet you have been strangely silent on that issues.

Maybe I have emails dated from before the campaign from some other Maraz and Cipson?

I don't disrespect Maraz in any way in my post. I see that he has doubts about my handling of this issue, and I am standing down.

How the hell is that disrespect to him?

If anyone has been disrespected it is me by you and Emil, but it seems you don't realize that.

Personally I don't care about you disrespecting me, but I am also not obliged to suffer any more of your insults.

Therefore: find another admin for Thursday, otherwise the campaign stops.

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:50 am

102nd-YU-devill wrote: If anyone has been disrespected it is me by you and Emil, but it seems you don't realize that.

Personally I don't care about you disrespecting me, but I am also not obliged to suffer any more of your insults.

I recommend reading through the topic again and find the paragraph were the disrespect or the insult start.

IAF.ViFF · Post by **IAF.ViFF** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:54 am

What the hell is wrong with you people.

We are the last vestige of dedicated IL2 pilots flying big events.

For chrissakes look at the servers on hyperlobby: they are all empty!!!

don't ruin one of the most enjoyable experiences remaining in IL2.

the guy took the time out of his life to create this campaign for you.

is it that difficult to make an effort at bombing at an angle greater then 30 degrees?

at one point we will discover the axis transport group and the coin will face the other side.

so both sides are balanced by this.

II/JG77_Jack · Post by **II/JG77_Jack** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:59 am

I agree with Viff.

Devill is the boss and everyone flying here must have complete faith in his ability and trust that he is doing only what is the best for balance,and not trying to "bring down" the opposing side.

We agreed to join and fly the campaign that means we agreed on Devills rules whatever someone thinks about them

Now lets cut the talk and let devil decide,we gave him our input he can take it or leave it,in the end decidion is DEVILLS.

Thanks

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:11 am

IAF.ViFF wrote:is it that difficult to make an effort at bombing at an angle greater then 30 degrees?

I think the rule was speaking about skipbombing and not 30°

30°+ is not a problem at all.

What´s next 40 degrees?

I recomnend you watch the track to see if it was 30° or above on the approach and make sure you use a ruler.
And remember at some point you need to pull out.

102nd-YU-devill · Post by **102nd-YU-devill** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:14 am

Ok Emil you are right.

No mission tomorrow the MP is locked.

I hope everyone is happy now.

Cheers!

II/JG54_Emil · Post by **II/JG54_Emil** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:20 am

102nd-YU-devill wrote:Ok Emil you are right.

No mission tomorrow the MP is locked.

I hope everyone is happy now.

Cheers!

If you think this is the only way to deal with the situation and there is no other way for you.
It´s your decision

102nd-YU-Mornar · Post by **102nd-YU-Mornar** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:30 am

NO!!! everyone is not happy...not happy at all.

Please, gentlmen, please...patience is a virtue. We can`t make anywhere at this manner. Please, let the commanders and admin talk about it, I`m sure they can find some compromise. So, please, quit arguing and start talking.

Please, Devill don`t quit on us now, a lots of time is spent on this great campaign, and it would be the shame not to bring it to the end.

Cheers all, and be cool

Classic EAF19 · Post by **Classic EAF19** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:32 am

102nd-YU-devill wrote:Ok Emil *intentionally deleted*.

No mission tomorrow the MP is locked.

I hope everyone is happy now.

Cheers!

This is the single most apalling thing I have ever encountered in a SEOW campaign, and I have seen a few!

Devill has spent god knows how many hours of his free time to create this campaign for us. Countless hours spent on very in depth research and the testing of many ideas and features to make for a very balanced campaign. I believe we have here a good and very balanced campaign. What is wrong with abiding by the rules as set by the admin, hey you may even suffer less losses

The way this thread has gone is terrible, I can only echo Viffs comments that SEOW is all that keeps IL2 alive, we are the last community or band of brothers bonded together by this ageing flight sim. There may never be a true replacement for this kind of campaigning, I doubt Cliffs of Dover will ever offer the content that we have right now with IL2. I doubt we will ever be able to have such massive war simulations that we have now with IL2. If we the last pillar of this community cannot get along and warmly receive and valiantly play a campaign created for us then we may as well uninstall IL2 now and switch to endless dogfights in CloD or cruising around at 100mph with the virtual wind in your hair playing RoF.

Now lets get together the admin, commanders (Cipson and myself) and moderators (Gross and Cmirko) and sort this out. We have a discussion and we decide on the final rules without reporting back to anyone else for approval. It should not be too hard. Finally ask Devill if he will kindly continue to admin this campaign and anyone who steps out of line can be dropped from the campaign.