Current Campaign Balance

The general briefing room for the Marianas 1944 campaign. Open to all interested in this campaign. SEOW HQ standards of behaviour and courtesy apply.
EAF331_Starfire
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Post by EAF331_Starfire » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:31 am

6S.Cipson wrote:The Intervention of the Admin/Game Master Diego Gross, was made also for the Allied Side, in my opinion for right reasons, as well as was made for the JAp side, for balancing the excessive power of allied Planeset and Shipset, without the which, the Campaign were terminated at the 4th mission, after only 3 Avenger sunk 2 Japanese Carriers. (!?!)

Therefore please Gentlemen keep the discussion on more aseptic and logical way... Thank you for your understanding :wink:

Regards Cip

You talk about balance all the time. What balance? To achive what?
I don't undestand? The tone is septic and logic, so I dont undestand.
EDIT: It is important that you in the Italien community answer the Devils questions. We need you to show us the equation, how you get to the result whe you speak about logic. Without the equation we are none the wiser.
I am sure it would clarify a lot for the rest of us.
Last edited by EAF331_Starfire on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EAF331_Starfire
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Post by EAF331_Starfire » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:49 am

When we attacked that CV we came in at over 2000m. That means that you could not avoid seeing us on radar. The CV that EAF attack was only CAP'ed by two fighters. Even worse, we got away clean. It was only later that we lost an aircraft when Classic choose to play hero and sacrifice himself 8)
Even today I have a hard time undestanding why such a valuable target was not protected by more aircrafts. Allied side had a lot more aircrafts dedicated to protecting our valuble assets.

I later mission while I was flying attack aircrafts and destroying japanese ground units, we saw quite a lot of jap fighter at 7000m+ just staying high.
Fighters dont win wars. Groundpounders does. Bombers are there for the attacking units on the ground. Fighters are there for protecting bombers and ground units.
I have never in any campaign had so much time hunting for ground tagets in the same place. It was so unreal to me.
Whenever I strafed a convoy in the Libya campaign I no more than 3 min. Here I had 30min
"Words that do not match deeds are unimportant."
“Silence is argument carried out by other means.”
- Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Cipson
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Post by Cipson » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:46 am

I just answered on these arguments and is not my intention to cause a neverend discussion on details.
What I want to point out is that while 3 aircraft, for a side were in condition to get a Carrier, for other side was difficult made the same with 20 aircraft escorted. (see NOTE)

We made the same result only for the Allied Shamrock Bay, which being, a light Carrier (similar to Japanese) sunk with 3 shots, bur for others, being necessary not less of 8 x 500 Bombs or 16 x 250 kg, all on target, was a really an hard job, if not an impossible one.

_______________________________________________________
NOTE (reported Post)
Well Gentlemen,

with enormous sacrifice of our pilots and wasting our bomber force, in a spectacular action, we hit the "Essex" with Torpedos and Bombs for a total of 2400 Kg of explosives and the Carrier is still alive.

Frankly speaking is difficult that we can do better than this...

Therefore your comments appear a little bit out of place... :wink:

Cheers

Cip
____________________________________________________


Anyway, I don't want to convince anyone, who is convinced of the contrary, but only give information to be analised, in order to do the better possible job for future Campaigns.

My initial comments were only made in favour of our Game Master, which, notwithstanding an effective unbalanced scenario (following the Historical events), gave to all us the possibility to play 16 Immersive & Hard missions, mantaining the uncertainty of the Result until the end of the Game, along the Best Tradition of succesfull Games.

Thank you again for the Hard Job

and Best Regards to everybody.

Cip
Last edited by Cipson on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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102nd-YU-Mornar
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Post by 102nd-YU-Mornar » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:30 pm

OK, I must say something about balanced campiagn.

From the position of Il2 fighter pilot it could appear that US side was in great advantage (we could talk about that, also, if we know performance of Raidens, N1K1s, Zeros, but never mind...), but I convince you...from the eyes of Naval officer (that`s me for everyone who dont know me:D ), this campaign, from strategic point of view, greatly favorise IJ side. Viff, Chap, Classic and others heard me when I said: "we can never win this"

And I will say why...

First, IJ side was in defence, and that is already advantage, cose in strategy in armies and navies all over the world, the basic fact is that if you want to capture some point, attacking side MUST have ratio 3:1 - MINIMUM. US side didn't have that ratio in this campaign

Second, IJ forces were already on islands, holding CPs, so IJ side started with advantage of 210.000 points (120.000 points if we count capital forces). Smartly placed on island grd forces could be undestructable.

Third, US started campaign in most delicate and the most dangerous phase of operation - approaching the islands with transport ships. I don`t have to say anything about this anymore

Fourth, total apsence of landing boats and amphibious vehicles on transport ships. I don`t know what commander would try to perform landing and making bridgehaed on island with big and slow transport ships full of MArines, if there can be expected hard resitance. Ships come to some point, and then landing crafts, and amphibious vehicles come on scene.

Fifth, IJ side had full landbased fields and ground RADARs, just in area of operations. I can not emphasize enough how big advantage is this.

Etc, etc

I don`t want to make any flamewar, just wanted to point out some other view.

Cheers!
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Classic EAF19
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Post by Classic EAF19 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:41 pm

Seems to me that we have talked enough let us start the rematch. Cipson what is the axis opinion of a rematch?
Molti nemici molto onore!

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Cipson
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Post by Cipson » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:49 pm

My Dear Enemy,

As official answer from Italian Team, I can only report here, for your convenience, the answer of our Admin Diego Gross:
22GCT_Gross wrote:We would prefer to play the Leyte campaign.
Viff seems able to take the administration of the campaign.
If confirmed, we let you manage all giving the availability of the server, if needed.

Moreover, if you are interested only to my personal opinion, this was just expressed:
6S.Cipson wrote:Gentlemen,

Due to the fact that the majority of our Pilots were contrary, as principle, to the use made of this unrealistic possibility of IL-2, I don't think that our Pilots will accept to reintroduce them in the next Campaign, moreover if they have to use these bugs.
...
Moreover, regarding Marianas, due to the fact that this Campaign was mainly strategic, based on the possibility to imagine what the enemy had to do for taking the opponent by surprise, regaming the same Campaign risks to lose the main factor of Game, just the surprise, resulting afterall to a sort of reheated Soup, the best idea is probably to play the new Campaign The Battle of Leyte Gulf just quite ready.
Therefore, it seems not now, may be in future, but, for sure, with the due adjustments on both side. (Let's say no tricks?:wink:)

Best Regards

Cip
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Cipson
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Post by Cipson » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:31 pm

I due a right answer to my Friends/Opponent of Great 102°, keeping present that, all these considerations, are only my personal opinions.

102nd-YU-Mornar wrote:OK, I must say something about balanced campiagn.
From the position of Il2 fighter pilot it could appear that US side was in great advantage
Agree
(we could talk about that, also, if we know performance of Raidens, N1K1s, ... but never mind...),
Introduced becouse Zeros were not in condition to reach B-24 and P-47 at high quote, or to shot down an Avenger in combat due to the lack of heavy ammunition (only 30 rounds per cannon).
but I convince you...from the eyes of Naval officer (that`s me for everyone who dont know me:D ), this campaign, from strategic point of view, greatly favorise IJ side. Viff, Chap, Classic and others heard me when I said: "we can never win this"
You won.
It means that or you had in front very weak opponents or that some possibilities the Game Designers had given to you.:wink:

And I will say why...

First, IJ side was in defence, and that is already advantage, cose in strategy in armies and navies all over the world, the basic fact is that if you want to capture some point, attacking side MUST have ratio 3:1 - MINIMUM.
Correct
Second, IJ forces were already on islands, holding CPs, so IJ side started with advantage of 210.000 points (120.000 points if we count capital forces). Smartly placed on island grd forces could be undestructable.
The Advantage was the estimation of Game Designers, due to the fact that you won, the estimation seems correct (see comment #3)
Third, US started campaign in most delicate and the most dangerous phase of operation - approaching the islands with transport ships. I don`t have to say anything about this anymore
This is the Real Delicate question. The only weak point of Allied front were troop trasports, infact the only way Japs could stop you.
But, due to the fact that some transport arrived, we can return to the answer 3: Or you were very able or your Opponents not so skilfull.
At the end of the day, Game designers have seen right, considered the Result.

Fourth, total apsence of landing boats and amphibious vehicles on transport ships. I don`t know what commander would try to perform landing and making bridgehaed on island with big and slow transport ships full of MArines, if there can be expected hard resitance. Ships come to some point, and then landing crafts, and amphibious vehicles come on scene.
Agree.
I don't know if technically we can do something on this aspect, which in anycase remain confined in the low developement of sea warfare of IL-2 engine.
Fifth, IJ side had full landbased fields and ground RADARs, just in area of operations. I can not emphasize enough how big advantage is this.
Very often Jap Radar were shutted very early by bomber raids, with the result that Jap were not in condition to know if, on his own Airport, were or not enemy incursions.
I agree with this possibility, but at least a sort of Watcher, informing how is the situation, not far 100km, but only above the home roof has to be foreseen, do you think is it reasonable?
We played many missions being blind in our home.

On the other side Allied had Radar everywere, moreover I.F.F.
Have I to emphasize enough how big advantage is this?
I don`t want to make any flamewar, just wanted to point out some other view.
Absolutely agree. These discussions are made with the only aim to find the best common points between the Parties, in order to organise next Campaigns in the best way, with mutual satisfaction.

At least but not the last I have to congratulate with Mornar, and in general with the Strategos of Allied Team, for the accurate moves of USA Fleet which put us in trouble many times

Very good Fleet Commander

Best Regards

Cip
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EAF331_Starfire
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Post by EAF331_Starfire » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:39 pm

SEOW is not about indivifuual valor. It is about strategy.
When we fly in IL2 we are just a wheel in the great clock.
The planners plan with attition and loses. The idividual pilot are nothning but a pawn in a chessgame.
During my 180 min I will try do deliver while doing my best to survive.
I will even abort to make sure of , survival. storeis tell aboutt Japs killing POW.

This is not only about winning. Every SOEW are evaluateted in EAF.
It is as much a matter of how, but why. We want to prepare future planners, in case Classic becomes unavailable.

It is late and I have drunk way to much red wine and whiskey
"Words that do not match deeds are unimportant."
“Silence is argument carried out by other means.”
- Ernesto "Che" Guevara
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