First steps ...

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

Hi everyone,

It has been no secret that I have been interested in pursuing a campaign based on the tremendous struggles west of Kiev in late 43 and early 44. I have been doing some reading on this action, and I would like to invite experienced and advanced SEOW campaign designers to work with me to establish an excellent campaign for this scenario.

The general parameters for involvement are:

1. Historical orders of battle will be used wherever possible to generate SEOW orders of battle, using proportionate weighting methods for playability.

2. The best available historical meteorological data will be used.

3. Based on the data I have so far, the air war was very limited, so this will be a largely army-dominated action, on frozen terrain in miserable weather. There will be limited air operations, but they will support the ground war.

4. This is not an invitation for squads to register and take part. This is a development invitation for talented and committed individuals who are keen to learn about the actions of the First Ukrainian Front (Vatutin)opposed by 4th Panzer Armee Oberkommando (Manstein) after the liberation of Kiev in 1943, and who are keen to work with others in setting up the SEOW campaign.

Data sources are critical, and will be added to as new sources come to light. At the moment I am using the following source as reference:

Zhitomir-Berdichev: German operations west of Kiev 23 December 1943 to 30 January 1944, by Stephen Barratt


Strategic Background
The FUF is on the move after retaking Kiev. 4.PzAOK is weakened, but still formidable as it holds a line of major rail junctions stretching from Korosten' in the northwest, through Zhitomir and Berdichev to Kazatin in the south. Without control of these rail stations, the northern flank of Army Group South will collapse, with drastic consequences for the entire Axis front line in the east. The armoured Soviet thrust to capture the KZBK stations was defended grimly by the German forces, forming a pivotal moment in the war.


Please let me know if you are keen to get involved. PMs, email, posts or TS.

Cheers,
4Shades

[LW/JG10_subg]

Not so talented and maybe even not so committed but definately interested and keen to add something as well as possibly using this to learn the ground war stuff and all.
I will do my best to find info about limited air actions/options etc. Speaking to you the other day we talked about Black cross Red Star vol 3 - I checked it out and Stalingrad is not even finished yet!! typical.
I will do some other work however, I have a number of smaller less intense books that will help a little. The new 190 book from Classic will give me a whole heap about 190s etc but I am assuming cobbling together small details from a number of sources at this stage.
S!

[WTE_Ikey]

4Shades knows I'm interested .

Subg, have you got Bagration to Berlin by C. Bergstrom , there are sections in it covering this . Not sure atm of other references for these air battles .

[102nd-YU-devill]

I am in the middle of some other SEOW projects, but would definitely like to be in the loop for this one. Let me know if I can help in some way.

[WTE_Ikey]

3. so this will be on frozen terrain in miserable weather.


4Shades

4Shades will the above now mean you've looking at using the Kiev Ukraine (AP) maps over stock map. Just need to know for those reasons I mentioned on TS while back thats all.

I feel shorter run campaigns will benefit from the more mobile capable AP maps.

cheers
ikey[/b]

[LW/JG10_subg]

I have just popped that in the old shopping basket although some reviews say it comes up a bit short here and there - do you have it Ikey?. Another book that has been mentioned is The German Air War in Russia by Richard Muller which is alot older but has alot of detail about the German side of things.
I think it will be difficult to get full historical accuracy on this one when it comes to air ops - We can assume however that Fw189s flew recce and I am assuming real human recce will be vital at lower levels if clouds are bad throughout. The VVS would have the SU2 (I think that is what it is) and even the old Po2s still for low level.
The Storch will undoubtably figure in this one too.
Tactical bombing and ground attack I guess will be the order of the day - JU87Ds and maybe JU87G2s (will try to check, certainly operating further South at this time and 75% of German air power was diverted to assist counter attacks near Zhitomir? - closeish). 110Es and possibly Hs129s (can check)
The old IL2 of course, possibly PE2s too.
High air ops possibly pointless but maybe some limited JABO options and escort for recces.
109E7s were pressed into action across East even this late (will try to check), a few 109G2s and maybe G6s. The Fw190? possibly the G1,2,3 ground attack and maybe some F8s variant (this is only option in game anyway). Bottom line is at this point German fighters were all loaded with stuff to assist the ground battles. 109G2s for example were being used as ground attack aircraft with the 20mm Gondalas during late 43.
I suggest all Axis fighters be non replaceable anyway as this could help create the desperate situation for Axis. Well maybe unlimited E7Bs!!! just in case.
VVS always had Lagg3s and Yak 3s right to the end, maybe a few LA5s, not sure on use of P39s in this area at this time but???.
I would suggest unlimited VVS aircraft but minimal JABO or no JABO from VVS fighters just to balance a little and anyway the IL2 always took care of ground pounding.
Bombers?? I am assuming that only the VVS could muster them safely to hit bases and German rear areas but no idea of this. Just thinking however of some of the twin fliers that may like a shot at flying this one?
maybe 5xAxis twins and 20 x VVS???
Obviously this is all a bit general and more than likely way too lively I am sure weather during this period limited flying alot however we all still love to fly too and I am not anywhere near the stage of driving a truck and dropping off some hay for the starving horses!!!

Also if weather is poor how will AI recce work?

S!

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

I still haven't thought much about the map, so I am glad that Ikey is thinking about it!

AI recce will be inefficient (but not totally useless) in poor weather and low clouds. Humans will have to be involved, in the air and on the ground.

Cheers,
4Shades

[WTE_Ikey]

some reviews say it comes up a bit short here and there - do you have it Ikey?.

Had a quick look through again & yes it only touches on it briefly in parts .
II/JG54, 7/StG2 & III/JG52 are mentioned in combat during November as well as 2VA's 937IAP (La5),728IAP (Yak7B), 91IAP (Yak9) & 15IAP (Yak1)
but thats about all.

Weather was appalling during periods of operations.

'When soviets resumed offensive on Christmas Eve 1943 the Luftwaffe had 68% Ist line Eastern front aircraft (1150 a/c) concentrated in Luftflotte 4 but were grounded most of that period due to weather. '

Due to offensive IV/JG51 had to abandon their base at Zhitomir ,their new base being Vinnitsa south of Berdychev. Gruppenkommander E. Bob ordered jabo missions which his pilots werent particularly pleased with.

Looks like other books & websites for more specifics.

[II/JG77Hawk_5]

Officially putting my hand up in what ever capacity even if only as a seasoned campaigner giving my 2 cents worth.

I would like to raise other points of discussion in my own rambling way.

We may have mentioned this on TS but on what scale shall the campaign take on? In this I mean the number of units on map at initialisation and the max allowable forces on the move at any one time. We know from experience that big maps and big areas require a lot of movement and a lot of planning per mission. A large area with large numbers of units results in vast numbers of units sitting idle on map due to limited movement rules. Clearly, the number of commanders involved has a big influence on all of this.

Getting an idea of movement per mission, both in unit numbers and waypoints allowed and total units on map early on would be a help as to how much to scale the armies involved.

Shall we have a map with many thousands of units to cover a large front and limited movement per mission or concentrate on smaller sections of the front with larger movement numbers on map? This is to provide a more intense frontline battlefield.

After our experience in Serata I am inclined to go with a campaign focused on a smaller area with a denser population on map and more unit movement. Being mostly a ground war we as planners also need more detailed maps to plan effectively on this smaller region.

With small numbers of players in any one mission we could push IL2 to its ground war limits in numbers and provide a more immersive experience?

As it stands I think this would more immersive if it were an enlarged Serata style campaign. Limited numbers flying if at all during any one mission and most people who show up "to fly", occcupying jeeps and kubelwagons probing the frontlines in poor weather.

An early agreement could simplify what appears to be a complex order of battle if a smaller region is focused on.

Cheers,
5

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

Personally, I thought Sarata was spectacular and I would love to do something similar again.

Let's just assemble the best OOBs we can first, then make a slightly more informed decision. We may find, for example, that a Korosten'-only campaign to start with could be run with a near historical OOB.

Cheers,
4S

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

Just did some work with Warg to estimate 4.PzAOK and FUF armour dispositions, and I also added in German combat troop estimates from Barratt's wonderful book.

If we have a look at the ideas in Hawk_5's post, we can now see that the total numbers of men and machines in any one focal point would be manageable at historical levels, e.g. Korosten' may only have 100 tanks and a couple of hundred platoons in total.

From the book I also note that about 50% of the vehicular transport units on both sides were horse-drawn, and that transport trains were in heavy use within 15 km of the front lines.

Cheers,
4S

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

Ikey,

I just had a quick look at Kiev_AP map at 8am on 23 Dec 1943, with Rain/Snow and clouds at 400 m. That has the perfect feel - grim desperation. And not too many rivers to worry about.

Cheers,
4S

[WTE_Ikey]

Sounds good, & I also thoroughly enjoyed the feel of Sarata campaign so similar but maybe on a slightly larger scale .I havent checked on the actual battle yet. What size approx near Korosten are you considering? about 50 sq km or ?

Cheers
Ikey

[IV/JG7_4Shades]

Maybe a front line about 40 km long in an arc around Korosten'. This is in NW corner of Kiev_AP map, quite a confined space. The major red armour push was through Zhitomir and Berdychev to the south.

I could see a 10-mission campaign for Korosten' and maybe if it goes well a slightly larger one for ZBK. Just an idea.

4s

[Faustnik]

This campaign sounds great!

A such a small area with a huge number of infantry and tanks should be quite exciting.